Open letter to bush

[gerard]

I saw this posted up, figured we should discuss.

an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush


Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina
and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted.Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying
to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I wasmoved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30
percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army
helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.

[gerard]

Oh to add to this, didn't new orleans vote for bush?

[andrewhyman]

**** i dont know but that speaks a lot im posten it up on myspace yo!

[G's Lover]

not that i'm going to agree w/ what he did, but do u think the CIA would let him go there w/ all the shooting b/c they can't secure an area? AND a fair % the ppl have nothing to lose if they shot him.

plus, it's not like he MADE katrina hit N.O. nor did or would anyone in their right minds want this to happen.

[cuethebirds]

also i think michael moore twists a lot of things to make them sound bad, but hey it is really bad that bush hasnt tried harder to get stuff done there

[pop]

also i think michael moore twists a lot of things to make them sound bad, but hey it is really bad that bush hasnt tried harder to get stuff done there

true. i think he does twist things to make it look the way they want. but i cant help but think that there would be more national guard there to help out if they werent all in iraq. i mean thats their job right? guarding the nation?

[gerard]

also i think michael moore twists a lot of things to make them sound bad, but hey it is really bad that bush hasnt tried harder to get stuff done there
Moore might spin things to make bush look bad, but dont you think that bush spins things to look good and in his favor?

[MasterMan]

lol them being in iraq is not guarding the nation. So, what are they doing there? and, we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction. George Bush is such a dweeb, the CIA found evidence that there might be a terrost attack using our planes and the CIA addressed him on this before 911 and what did he do? NOTHING!! I guess it is becuase and i quote "it's just hard work"! Well, what the **** did he think being president over a whole country is? A cruise down the bunny slope? (ha, since this is a snowboarding site i figured yall would get it.)

[gerard]

Did you know that he has taken more vacation then any other president?

[thedude]

http://www.woodburydems.com/images/Bush%20-%20Fear.jpg
why doe sthis seem llike it is so true?

[kelly]

Moore might spin things to make bush look bad, but dont you think that bush spins things to look good and in his favor?
I agree, and I think dissent is important. If we only had Bush's spin on things, where would we be?
Also, although Moore obviously has an agenda, from what I know, he's pretty strict about research and using verified, factual information. Sure, it might be overly sarcastic and he might select to only convey the info that makes Bush look like a jackass (although I agree with him there), but he usually does bring up some things that need to be examined.

[gerard]

thedude, I love that image....

[booboo]

I agree, and I think dissent is important. If we only had Bush's spin on things, where would we be?
Also, although Moore obviously has an agenda, from what I know, he's pretty strict about research and using verified, factual information. Sure, it might be overly sarcastic and he might select to only convey the info that makes Bush look like a jackass (although I agree with him there), but he usually does bring up some things that need to be examined.

Moore is very open about the fact that he spins his info to suit his agenda the same way politicians do. Although I agree with him for the most part I do wish he would not make it so easy for people to poke holes in his arguments.

[e.]

michael moore is such an ass. he takes so much out of context and goes thru suck extremes to prove a weak point. he just likes to win arguements and feel powerful

[kelly]

Pshah, weak point. I agree with most of his weak points :)
He has gotten a bit carried away in the past few years though, winning more enemies than friends I think.

[e.]

Pshah, weak point. I agree with most of his weak points :)
He has gotten a bit carried away in the past few years though, winning more enemies than friends I think.

i am not disagreeing with his points or topics of arguement. its just i dont respect how he chooses to make his fights. to me he is just like howard stern. i have seen older stuff of Moore and not cared about it. i never noticed how big he got until that 9/11 movie. and a lot of the footage and qoutes from bush and his admistration i have seen or heard of before the movie. now i am not a bush fan, but moore edited the footage to help prove his points. what really pisses me off is that he really didnt have to at all and still he did. after seeing that i thought back to the other films of his i say and starting thinking how often he does that.

[SnoChica]

He just gives a different point of you. Part of being an educated American is reading and searching all you cam about a topic and then formulating an opinion. The problem is, most American get their news from TV. They are fed information and never really decide for themsleves. Forums like this only give us more of an opportunity to discuss different views. Think for yourselves. And finally, listen to others with respect and disagree if you like, but respect the opinion.

[snowboardnguy90]

yea i totally agree with e. Micheal Moore, along with ne one even slightly politically involved, twists words. I mean, moore really didn't have to do anything to make bush look like an idiot, cuz he did that himself.

But back the the original topic, there really should be more helicopters trying to save those people. And bush really shouldn't have landed cuz he woulda been shot by one of those psycho snipers (which wouldn't be that bad actually...)

[Rubiks]

I am backing the letter but allowing for 2 key points:
1) We know Micheal Moore is bending the truth to suit his needs, but there are also some kernal of the truth at the base of everyone of his statments.
2) Why does it always take Bush so long to get it done. We declare war quicker than he can respond to national disasters.

[snowboardnguy90]

oh yea the dude, i saw ur pic at my local music store!!! the rage against the machine one. i was there and i saw it and was like "hmm, that looks familiar... holy **** it's from that guy from SBA!!"

[kelly]

Yeah, I think he's gotten obnoxious, and he used to present much more well-reasoned opinions, but maybe his purpose isn't to win people over with his arguments as much as to get them to discuss things, and take a closer look at what is going on, to see if he's right. Chica's right, if we don't have someone out there bringing that **** up in such a way that it gets widely publicized, a lot of people would never even think to look twice at what is going on behind the scenes.

[thedude]

thedude, I love that image....

lol, i'm so glad that a google search can even please a web mastermind such as yourself.

[thedude]

oh yea the dude, i saw ur pic at my local music store!!! the rage against the machine one. i was there and i saw it and was like "hmm, that looks familiar... holy **** it's from that guy from SBA!!"

lol, that's awsome. yeah, that was their first cd they put out on a major lable. it's a damn fine cd, i recomend oyu go back and buy it if you didn't pick it up whiel you were there

[kelly]

Speaking of which, I want to know what gerard got on that nerd/dork/geek test snochica posted... :)

[thedude]

where si that test at? i want to take it

[snowboardnguy90]

lol, that's awsome. yeah, that was their first cd they put out on a major lable. it's a damn fine cd, i recomend oyu go back and buy it if you didn't pick it up whiel you were there

yea i was thinking about getting it but i don't buy cd's on impulse. i'm tight on $$ so i make sure i really like a band before i get the cd.

but i will look into this =).

[kelly]

where si that test at? i want to take it
It's here:
http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=9935030990046738815

Oh yeah, and people have posted their results in that thread called Dorkified - I came up as tri-lamb (revenge of the nerds) material.. hehe.

[SnoChica]

yea i was thinking about getting it but i don't buy cd's on impulse. i'm tight on $$ so i make sure i really like a band before i get the cd.

but i will look into this =).Off Topic but... I have a copy... I ripped my to digital, so If you want it, I'll send it to you. PM me your address.

[snowboardnguy90]

sweet... it's my user name @aol.com. if u want ne music just request from me in exchange, i might have it.

thx.

[Forum_4ever]

i agree with the letter he makes good point not a weak point? wtf have you every seen Bowling for Columbine?

[kelly]

sweet... it's my user name @aol.com. if u want ne music just request from me in exchange, i might have it.

thx.
ooh, now we can all stalk you via email...

[kelly]

where si that test at? i want to take it
Was your score so bad you didn't want to share it?

[snowboardnguy90]

ooh, now we can all stalk you via email...

yikes...

if i get more spam i'm looking at you guys!!

[kelly]

I hadn't even thought of that, but it'd be fun to submit your email address to porn newsletters...

[thedude]

yea i was thinking about getting it but i don't buy cd's on impulse. i'm tight on $$ so i make sure i really like a band before i get the cd.

but i will look into this =).

or jsut get the track list off the internet and rip them via a P2P program.

[thedude]

It's here:
http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=9935030990046738815

Oh yeah, and people have posted their results in that thread called Dorkified - I came up as tri-lamb (revenge of the nerds) material.. hehe.

i lost interest half way through, so i guess i don't knwo what i am but i have ADD

[kelly]

Probably not a sign that you'd come up nerdy at all.
Maybe dorky though.

[thedude]

that's what my g/f says, that bitch. (jk)

[snwbrdrjeff]

"W" is a big Bozzo.

[ADRsk8boarder]

i dont agree with what the government failed to do after the huricanne... i remember watching news anchors ON SCENE in la yet the government had no repsonse until a week and a half after the strom

[optionNFAripper]

i wana start off by asking all you more liberal people out there a question. why is it that you have to focus on the weapons of mass destruction? we went to war because we had reason to BELIEVE there were weapons of mass destruction because saddam had used them against HIS OWN PEOPLE. we even gave Saddam Hussein a date, do you not think he could have hidden them of shipped them for another place??? its not that hard to load em in a truck and just ship em off. and another thing, its not bush's fault for the high gas prices so dont be mad at him, its liberals that wont let us drill for oil in alaska kuzza the CARIBOU. and about out presence int he middle east, would you rather have a nation of people under tyranny and have women and little girls being raped and have everyone living with absolutely no human rights, or would you liek to do something about it. iraq harbors terrorism and by invaiding iraq and taking terrorist instalations out we're doing ourselves and the world a favor. we can help oursleves benefit outside of this country, or is that too hard to comprehend? i think its easy. and on to hurricane katrina. bush has absolutely nothing to do with the clean up. there is a federal organization run by the state that takes care of that stuff initally until the government can come in and do clean up. its not bush's fault that new orleans is a poor city and thousands of families are living off of wellfare and have been for generations so they dont know how to help themselves.

[optionNFAripper]

i dont know about all of you but im glad were over there getting rid of the scum that those jihadists are and when i turn 18 im signin up grabbin my rifle n poppin jihadist heads

[phillyboy]

I'm not going to re-address the whole "reason the US is over there" issue as I feel it's been adequately addressed on here in the past few days but I will address the drilling in Alaska issue. Now I'm not a liberal and I know your questions/statements were addressed to them but I would like to throw in my two cents anyway. Ironic that it would be the liberals fault for "conserving" our nation's environment isn't it? What's also ironic is that the first thing Reagan did when he came into office was disband the research teams that Jimmy Carter had assembled during his presidency to address alternative energy sources, which would have helped "conserve" our resources.

[SnoChica]

I've been steering clear of these political arguements, but I feel compelled to respond to this one. I am a liberal. And yes, I contact my Senators and Representatives about issues such as Arctic Drilling. Why?

1. Because the planet cannot bear our raping it much longer. The more animals and forest land we kill, the more harm we do ourselves by destroying the natural cycle of things.

2. Because there are better ways to become non-reliant on OPEC than drilling in on our own land. The real answer is in finding alternative energy sources. Specifically, renewable resources. The earth has a limited supoly of fossil fuels available for our use. Someday, they will all be gone. In addition, we have the technology to operate cars, trucks, and machines w/o oil/gasoline. Yet we do not. I wonder why that is?

Well, the main reason is that gov't and industry do not want us to. It's expensive to produce these new technologies and therefore not cost-effective. i.e. No one makes money off of it. So, if these companies push the gov't (by dumping money into the pockets of those in power) to maintain it's reliance on oil... everyone wins. Except the earth.

Now... IF you choose to respond to this, I would hope you actually have a well thought out counterpoint as opposed to just some degrading remark. After all, this is not about you and I.... it's about the air we breathe, the snow we ride.

[thedude]

i dont know about all of you but im glad were over there getting rid of the scum that those jihadists are and when i turn 18 im signin up grabbin my rifle n poppin jihadist heads

it's mentality leik that that drives the KKK, and it's peopel who act leik that whcih makes the peole over there hate us even more. plus, if you go oevr there and start "popping heads" they will most likely try you as a war criminal and then execute you before a firing squad. that is unless the extreamists don't get hodl of you first and kill you. you don't seem to have the understanding of what people are liek over there, so let me fill you in:
-most peoepl over there are nto crazy muslim or islamic extreamists. they extreamists only make up a small percentage of the peopel over there.
-yes, peopel are ahppy over there that we have got rid of a dangerous dictator (saddam), btu now live in fear from thsoe who are still loyal to him, because they are the ones performign suicide bombings and killign more of our troops and innocent bistanders.more women and children have died in the 2 months after the war than they have in that whoel year leading up to the war because of these attacks
-the troops who are there want the **** out. they went in thinking "oh ****, this is bad" to pleading wiht their supperiors to send them home. my neighbor is now gone and leaves a wife and two kids behind, and he was one week away form being a retiree when the war happened. he got diployed and he neevr got one shot fired. hsi humvee got blown up, and all they foudn fo him was his charred skeleton wiht bits of flesh hangign off. still eager to g over there now?
- depleated uranium? why are we using it in iraq on the tips of bullets and other projectiles? have you seent he images of the deformations and mustatiosn we have caused because of this? you see oen image and you are scared for life.

EDIT: DELETED PIC (SORRY I DON'T THINK ANYONE NEEDED TO SEE THAT WITHOUT A DISCLAIMER... MAYBE ADD A LINK INSTEAD)

i coudl go one, btu i think nothign mroe needs ot be said

so go ahead, sign up

[phillyboy]

i'd like to see the picture

[SnoChica]

I PM'd him to include the link. And if you want to think about it, it was a dead baby with it's guts visible.

[User Name]

I've been steering clear of these political arguements, but I feel compelled to respond to this one. I am a liberal. And yes, I contact my Senators and Representatives about issues such as Arctic Drilling. Why?

1. Because the planet cannot bear our raping it much longer. The more animals and forest land we kill, the more harm we do ourselves by destroying the natural cycle of things.

2. Because there are better ways to become non-reliant on OPEC than drilling in on our own land. The real answer is in finding alternative energy sources. Specifically, renewable resources. The earth has a limited supoly of fossil fuels available for our use. Someday, they will all be gone. In addition, we have the technology to operate cars, trucks, and machines w/o oil/gasoline. Yet we do not. I wonder why that is?

Well, the main reason is that gov't and industry do not want us to. It's expensive to produce these new technologies and therefore not cost-effective. i.e. No one makes money off of it. So, if these companies push the gov't (by dumping money into the pockets of those in power) to maintain it's reliance on oil... everyone wins. Except the earth.

Now... IF you choose to respond to this, I would hope you actually have a well thought out counterpoint as opposed to just some degrading remark. After all, this is not about you and I.... it's about the air we breathe, the snow we ride.

I lean towards Libertarian so that should give you a better Idea of where I am coming from.

I believe we are still using oil to operate our cars because there hasn’t been public demand until recently to make a change and now that there is look at what auto manufactures are doing. Almost everyone has at least one hybrid in their lineup and most are working on hydrogen power. Remember a publicly traded company’s reason for existence is to make money and unless they can make money off the product, meaning consumers buy the product, they will not make it. Now that there is demand look at the GM E-85 lineup and I believe Honda is working on a production hydrogen powered car. Support what we have now and businesses will see the demand and make more, simple supply and demand economics.

The reality is that the majority of the public will not change until it affects their wallets and these high gas prices are doing just that so people are demanding change. I personally am all for getting away from using oil to power our cars but I also know its not going to happen overnight, but I think it will happen. It not just our cars that use oil though. Ever look around to see how many of the products we use are made using oil? Until recently it has been a cheap way of doing things but as prices rise companies will look for cheaper ways to create products.

[Snow Wolf]

i wana start off by asking all you more liberal people out there a question. why is it that you have to focus on the weapons of mass destruction? we went to war because we had reason to BELIEVE there were weapons of mass destruction because saddam had used them against HIS OWN PEOPLE. we even gave Saddam Hussein a date, do you not think he could have hidden them of shipped them for another place??? its not that hard to load em in a truck and just ship em off.

Because that was the pretext for going in the first place.....He did`nt say we think there are...he stated that he had restarted a nuclear program....once you start from a lie, you cant go back and every thing after is suspect...besides every expert on the ground disputed this credibly. After 12 years of sanctions, anything he may have had left over from the 1991 invasion, was sold off already. Without regard to that, the best way to track down suspected weapons would be in a stable environment, not in a war zone...the war actually defeats our ability to track them down.

and another thing, its not bush's fault for the high gas prices so dont be mad at him, its liberals that wont let us drill for oil in alaska kuzza the CARIBOU.

No, its not directly his fault and most are`nt saying it is...but, his actions has caused massive unrest in the middle east which causes speculation in the markets and that instability drives up the price in the markets.....so by creating chaos, he causes the prices to rise on the world market. Also, you need to research your facts a little more in depth...the oil reserves in the arctic are a drop in the bucket and even if you extracted all of it, it does very little to address our energy situation...this is not a partisan argument either, top oil producers agree that the cost of extraction up there negates any real profit to the oil industry.....and the animals are only a part of the argument against drilling..


and about out presence int he middle east, would you rather have a nation of people under tyranny and have women and little girls being raped and have everyone living with absolutely no human rights, or would you liek to do something about it.

Okay, there are lots of regions living under these conditions....Sudan, Angola, Ethiopia, parts of Latin America, China, several former Soviet Republics.......shall we invade them all? Also, even if we strongly dissagree with a culture, what gives us the right to force our ways on them? I am all for providing humanitarian aid, but we are killing and torturing the very people we claim to be liberating.


iraq harbors terrorism and by invaiding iraq and taking terrorist instalations out we're doing ourselves and the world a favor. we can help oursleves benefit outside of this country, or is that too hard to comprehend? i think its easy.

Before we invaded, there were NOT terrorist and Al Queida cells in Iraq...in is the total chaos we have created that has enabled these groups to gather there. As bad as Sadam was, he kept that country locked up tighter than a duck`s ass. Our actions in Iraq have the exact opposite effect of our stated goal to stop terrorism....now we have a full fledged civil war between Suni`s and Shiites on top of foreign terrorists. Also, there were not terrorist instalations, there was Iraqi infrastructure like power plants, hospitals, water treatment plants, highways, railroads etc that we destroyed and have not rebuilt...what we have built is 14 PERMANENT military bases and the largest US embassy in the world...still think we are going to leave Iraq anytime soon?

and on to hurricane katrina. bush has absolutely nothing to do with the clean up. there is a federal organization run by the state that takes care of that stuff initally until the government can come in and do clean up. its not bush's fault that new orleans is a poor city and thousands of families are living off of wellfare and have been for generations so they dont know how to help themselves.

Uh....a FEDERAL agency is NOT run by the state it is run by the FEDERAL government (FEMA) He was briefed days before landfall by Director Michale Brown that the levees would likely fail and the devastation to the Gulf Coast would be of biblical proportions.....still he did not respond, did not cut short his vaccation to be on top of things.....I remind you that in Russia when the School in Beslan was taken over by Islamic terrorists, Vladimir Putin was on vaccation and he flew back to the Kremlin in the middle of the night within hours to deal with the situation...he is a REAL leader. No Bush did not cause the hurricane, but he DID cut federal funding to the Army Corps of Engineers for Levee improvement, he ignore Governor Blanco`s requests to have FEMA there on standby, he failed to mobilize the forces neccessary to effect timely evacuation after the severe weather had passed. So, because New Orleans has a large poor population and a lot on welfare and a lot of bad people who did loot and behave like animals, it`s okay to abandon the good people who`s only crime was they were poor and not of the "right" skin color????? Would you advocate abandoning thousands of people in Los Angeles after a major quake because they were unable to get out? You have got to be more inteligent than that!!



We as Americans have got to become more globally oriented in our thinking!

[thedude]

I PM'd him to include the link. And if you want to think about it, it was a dead baby with it's guts visible.

yeah, i did jump the gun on that one by a bit. it jsut gets a little frusterating when peopel refuse to even see the other side of the story so that maybe they can see that by fighting one evil power wiht another doesnt' cancel things otu and make a right

let us not become the evil that we deplore

here is the link to the picture --------->if you do nto find this distrudbign in the least bit,t hen there is somethig horribly wrong with you (http://www.doinggovernment.com/war/depleated%20uranium/Destroy%20people_files/image002.jpg)

[snowboardnguy90]

isn't it illegal to have uranium tipped bullets? and wouldn't that effect the people using those guns also?. i dont' know much about politics or the situation, and i won't pretend i do. but from what i do know snow wolf is right.

[sheil21ob]

i wana start off by asking all you more liberal people out there a question. why is it that you have to focus on the weapons of mass destruction? we went to war because we had reason to BELIEVE there were weapons of mass destruction because saddam had used them against HIS OWN PEOPLE. we even gave Saddam Hussein a date, do you not think he could have hidden them of shipped them for another place??? its not that hard to load em in a truck and just ship em off. and another thing, its not bush's fault for the high gas prices so dont be mad at him, its liberals that wont let us drill for oil in alaska kuzza the CARIBOU. and about out presence int he middle east, would you rather have a nation of people under tyranny and have women and little girls being raped and have everyone living with absolutely no human rights, or would you liek to do something about it. iraq harbors terrorism and by invaiding iraq and taking terrorist instalations out we're doing ourselves and the world a favor. we can help oursleves benefit outside of this country, or is that too hard to comprehend? i think its easy. and on to hurricane katrina. bush has absolutely nothing to do with the clean up. there is a federal organization run by the state that takes care of that stuff initally until the government can come in and do clean up. its not bush's fault that new orleans is a poor city and thousands of families are living off of wellfare and have been for generations so they dont know how to help themselves.

umm actually he used 9/11 as an excuse to invade.. admitted a few days later that Iraq had nothing to do with it, then came up with WMD, and then later admitted they didn't have any... see a pattern? It's not his reason we are fixating on it's his lack of reason.... if there were a good reason we'd all be for a justifiable war, but there isn't one.

[sheil21ob]

i dont know about all of you but im glad were over there getting rid of the scum that those jihadists are and when i turn 18 im signin up grabbin my rifle n poppin jihadist heads

Evolution...

[phillyboy]

i can't wait till that kid turns 18.

[thedude]

isn't it illegal to have uranium tipped bullets? and wouldn't that effect the people using those guns also?. i dont' know much about politics or the situation, and i won't pretend i do. but from what i do know snow wolf is right.

oh, hells yeah, it is illegal. we did it in the first gulf war, and there have been some reports leaked that we did it again thsi time around. it has effected thsoe who handle the ammunition as well. soem of them who have got home and decided to have kids, som reporst again got otu that they have deformed children. like i said though, we obviously are not conquoring evil by being evil oursleves.

[Snow Wolf]

In fact DU is thought to be the cause of Gulf War Syndrome that the government still won`t admit is a real health issue.

[snowboardnguy90]

oh, hells yeah, it is illegal. we did it in the first gulf war, and there have been some reports leaked that we did it again thsi time around. it has effected thsoe who handle the ammunition as well. soem of them who have got home and decided to have kids, som reporst again got otu that they have deformed children. like i said though, we obviously are not conquoring evil by being evil oursleves.

damn, **** that.

[jon1976]

Could it also be that the US wants to take over Iraq, in order to be in closer proximity to Isreal?

I don't have anything directly supporting that, but it sure does seem plausible. The Republican party is said to have more than half of it's members believing that we are in Revelation times.

Kooks in suits really.

[snowboardnguy90]

i doubt any other countries would let america take over iraq.

today's national borders have been in existance for a long ass time.

[jon1976]

Maybe so, just a thought. But why else would there be so many permanent bases there? It's just a thought as I said.

[thedude]

anybody who is a religious politician is a kook. that's juts how i think, because of the seperation of church and state. religion has no place in politics, but thsoe that do sit there and say some crazy ****. like my grandpa, Captain Catholic. don't get me wrong, i love my grandpa to death, btu his religious views are way otu there. he basically thins that the Pope shoudl be the leader of the world

[Snow Wolf]

You are right on there! America is a multifaith nation and no state religeon should be established. Our Founding Fathers knew what they were doing when they set this Republic up. Wanna see just how wacked this nutball is....read this....the man hears voices in his head....I`m not kidding!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

[Snow Wolf]

Could it also be that the US wants to take over Iraq, in order to be in closer proximity to Isreal?

I don't have anything directly supporting that, but it sure does seem plausible. The Republican party is said to have more than half of it's members believing that we are in Revelation times.

Kooks in suits really.

You`re not crazy......this is indeed the agenda! I have provided a link to another thread that covers this topi pretty well....watch the videos and visit the links I have provided. The Project For A New American Century has been trying to get just this very thing done since Bush Sr was in. Bill Clinton was NOT supposed to get elected and certainly not re elected....this put their plans on hold for 9 years till "Dufus" was placed in office in 2001. You are right, we are NEVER leaving Iraq and anyone who thinks we will has been badly misled and betrayed by this group of evil men. You are on target as usual!

http://snowboardaddicts.com/showthread.php?t=4141

SW

[jon1976]

Ahhhhh, holy crap......Thanks so much The Dude and Snow Wolf.......

Now where the heck are the guys that are chewing my tail, when you guys say that stuff. I've been trying to dodge fall-out from my similar opinions for TWO days now!

Hahahahhahahaha. You guys are alright in my book. Now I'm going to check out that link Snow.......

[snowboardnguy90]

hahaha you're like a prophet.

i still don't think any of the other world powers would let us do anything like that though...

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

that officially makes me think he's a nutball.

[jon1976]

I am sending that link to everyone I know. And absolutely Snowboardguy, one of his personal advisors is Jesus.

Jesus told G-dubya ta git them eavel dewers! And that's a what he's a doin!

[snowboardnguy90]

lol it's gonna be hard to get advice from a dead guy...

did you watch the movie on that other link? it's crazy.

[thedude]

You are right on there! America is a multifaith nation and no state religeon should be established. Our Founding Fathers knew what they were doing when they set this Republic up. Wanna see just how wacked this nutball is....read this....the man hears voices in his head....I`m not kidding!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

i was laughing my ass off when i was reading the quotes of him saying "god tells me..." god isn't saying **** to you, dumbass.

here is the new curious george book, titled: Curious George goes to Iraq (http://www.chadcrowe.com/GeorgeWPg10.html)

[SnowGeek]

I read a theory that humankind first developed 'consciousness' when people realized that the voices in their heads were their own minds. Before then, they thought they were hearing the Gods.

[snowboardnguy90]

You`re not crazy......this is indeed the agenda! I have provided a link to another thread that covers this topi pretty well....watch the videos and visit the links I have provided. The Project For A New American Century has been trying to get just this very thing done since Bush Sr was in. Bill Clinton was NOT supposed to get elected and certainly not re elected....this put their plans on hold for 9 years till "Dufus" was placed in office in 2001. You are right, we are NEVER leaving Iraq and anyone who thinks we will has been badly misled and betrayed by this group of evil men. You are on target as usual!

http://snowboardaddicts.com/showthread.php?t=4141

SW

i donno about the whole taking over thing... america places permanent military bases in any country that they go to war in. Germany, South Korea, china, they have them everywhere.

however, this is the first situation where the US is trying to enstill its values upon other people, so i don't know.

[thedude]

however, this is the first situation where the US is trying to enstill its values upon other people, so i don't know.

not really...
you know all that stuff about how once we defeated japan in WWII, we had the duty to help rebuild that country. along with it, we put in place the government that is being used today. we wrote their constitution for them. we took or government, because we thougth it was "better for them," and basically gave them no choice for seekign alternate ways to govern the countyr after their defeat.

[snowboardnguy90]

not really...
you know all that stuff about how once we defeated japan in WWII, we had the duty to help rebuild that country. along with it, we put in place the government that is being used today. we wrote their constitution for them. we took or government, because we thougth it was "better for them," and basically gave them no choice for seekign alternate ways to govern the countyr after their defeat.

yea that's a good point...

i'd like to believe that the US is genuinely trying to make the country better, because true democracy is no doubt, to me, the best form of government. Every form of "democracy" is corrupt, however, so yea Iraq and other converted nations are pretty much just as well off with their former governments.

[IceCoastChick]

Definitely not the first time, the US is imperialistic by nature. There was a whole time period where the US tried to instill its values in other countries for our own interest and succeeded for the most part. Cuba, china, philippines, panama, hawaii wouldn't really even be part of the US if we didn't pretty much take over the islands(they had kings and stuff beforehand). There's a lot of stuff about globalization/imperialism in the news.

[thedude]

since we are also the nation wiht the shortest history, and existance, to all the other countries of the world, it makes all of us look like the spoiled baby in the family, either it's our way or the hihgway. the way i see it, it shoudl be the other way around, respect your elders, in other words, don't **** wiht the older nations, for they deserve respect

[snowboardnguy90]

i don't know... i dont' really think a nation's age has to do with whether i respect them or not. but yea we do seem like spoiled babies to the rest of the world. especially the individual american... the average american is becoming so spoiled and self centered it's amazing me.

[thedude]

that's what i am saying, bro, we gotta have respect for other nations. another example is how we wree oen of the 5 super power nations that pusged fo the creation of the United Nations. now we don't pay our dues to the UN, we neglect their decisions, yet we expexted them to help us rebuild Iraq once we were done with our business. it's it jsut me, or is that mighty ****ed up? we don't do **** for the U.N in 20 years, and then we expect their help. i loved the UN's initial decision though, which was "no, you started it, you can end it."

and the only reason we act this way as a nation is because of how each person acts. and basically, each person, to some extent, is a greedy little bitch. i'll admit it, i've had those bull**** urges too, still do, but i am doing my part personally to make the better decision. i knwo pleantly of us out there are doing that, but not enough. people's individual mettality needs to change if our nation wants to stop being the spoiles baby of the world

[snowboardnguy90]

yea man.

the u.s. society freaking sucks now.

it's all pop culture, and everyone's so ignorant...

[snowboardnguy90]

yea man.

the u.s. society freaking sucks now.

it's all pop culture, and everyone's so ignorant...

lmao which reminds me my friend walked up to this big football player guy and goes "what war are we in?"

he goes "uhh... desert storm?"

hahahaha.

[thedude]

omfg, that is classic! kinda liek that one video that Anti-Flag has on their web page. basically their is thsi antiwar protest goig on, and they are marchign down the street past some frat house at some college, and all teh frat guys have signs out that say "nuke the middle east" and "use soap." so one of the guys in the band, i think it's the bass player, goes up to one of them and goes "so, what do you think of the war in Iraq?" and thsi kid then goes "**** you, get the **** off our propperety, **** off." it was a legit question, and the kid can't even form some kind of response other than an idle threat. so one of the other frat kids is actign liek a tough guy followig him being pushed back into the street by the cops, while the guy form the band then keeps saying "put your feet where your mouth is, sign up dude, go ste foot in Iraq." and still their response back was "**** you."

it's amazing, on a very scary note, that peopel are that ignorant of the world arodun them.

[snowboardnguy90]

i love anti flag.

only the singer's voice can get kind of nasally in some songs.

YOUR DADDY WAS A RICH MAN.....

[thedude]

lol, ture, it gets really scratchy, but it works for what they do, gives it more "edge" you can say.

[TheDanger-Zone]

Moore might spin things to make bush look bad, but dont you think that bush spins things to look good and in his favor?

To be honest G,
I think they all spin things to make them look good and their counter parties look bad..
That is why they have their own spin doctors.
And that is the name and the game of politics.

[snowboardnguy90]

To be honest G,
I think they all spin things to make them look good and their counter parties look bad..
That is why they have their own spin doctors.
And that is the name and the game of politics.

thats why i hate the government. a bunch of people posing that they're after the good of the nation and mankind... but they're ****ing not.

anarchy would be great if everyone could be at least a bit respectful... but unfortunately that ain't so.

[Snow Wolf]

Social Democracy is the best compromise I think we can achieve right now.

[thedude]

To be honest G,
I think they all spin things to make them look good and their counter parties look bad..
That is why they have their own spin doctors.
And that is the name and the game of politics.
very true, why do you think every political party uses negative camainging? it's all about slammign the opposition to make you look better.

[snowboardnguy90]

yea, it's survival of the fittest... or the nastiest and dirtiest.

it's the same thing

[sheil21ob]

To be honest G,
I think they all spin things to make them look good and their counter parties look bad..
That is why they have their own spin doctors.
And that is the name and the game of politics.

However Michael Moore is not a politician, he's not telling you what to do, nor is he creating anything that decides how you should live or weather you should die. He clearly states that this is his opinion...
not so for politicians, they'll never admit that all they're doing is whoreing their opinions around...

[thedude]

being form michigan, i am not new to Moore's tom-foolery. hemakes soem good points, but a lot of hsi arguments are one sided, even though he is sayign he is keepign the arguments leevl and lettign people decide. we'eve come accustomed to not really listenign to him and thnking for ourselves on relatvie issues

[username? tim?]

this is an old thread... but i mean that storm looked pretty nasty in florida and it didn't get to new orleans over night... and they knew it was really F***ing big but more people that could have evacuated in time didn't cause they didn't wanna leave their homes.

i mean i agree that the response took too long and everything but my thinking is more that if your government is gonna pansy around and not give you money for stuff, raise it yourself if people see the point of doing it... like people in new orleans should have seen that fixing levies is a good idea then they will probably support the effort and they know hurricanes have surges and that living in a place near the coast that's below sea level will be greatly effected if any flooding ever happens

idk i'm more for fixing stuff when i know it's going to break than fixing stuff after it does

[username? tim?]

and how did this get thread get onto the subject of iraq? we were there because we decided that terrorism is bad and iraq we knew was headed by a crazy guy that kills people (which... is a violation of human rights... which is something the u.n. was founded to protect) any way we had suspicions that saddam had wmd,,, he said he didn't... he had lied before... we didn't trust him... so we went and he was really opposed... this is strange why would someone without wmd be scared so we took him out... it takes a while to rebuild government especially if there are people that oppose the new one...

that's the sunny side...

the dark side is that yes we have been there too long not getting much done.
people getting killed over there signed up for the army volenteeraly (which has now been turned into a way to get into college for free really... recently you haven't had to fight to get into college) there's no draft no one made them sign up but aparantly you might have to fight if you join the military

we went after iraq because they weren't our friend and they are a powerful nation that bush felt or was told to feel (as polititions are no matter what party they are in presidents aren't military generals or international peace keepers they are the mouth and pretty face that looks good on tv of the people that are) (and yes pretty is a factor because of our communication advances we are used to seeing asthetically pleasing people on tv and ugly president would never win an election in this day and age)

now should presidents know more strategy yes...

someone said that we look like the spoiled child of the world
we worked for that... we have stepped on people on the way but we earned every bit of it

and most if not all advances to modern technology are because of wars
without wars we would not be where we are today... our planes helicopters computers weather predicting (dopplar came from war) cars would not be as effective if it wasn't for the need to win wars

some one said that we need to switch to alternitive fuels because they are available...

well so is gas presently and it would cost as much to keep using gas as it would to switch to something else.

we like gas gas is our friend... we have used it for quite a while so we know how to transport it and it is easy to store and use

but as of yet they are expensive hydrogen fuel cars are not getting the funding they need to ever be effective (storing hydrogen is a pain in the ass because it is so small it can get in metal and make it brittle so it can't be stores as cheaply as gas) and hydrogen is expensive to produce. and if we are such a spoiled country why don't you people that are complaining about being spoiled give your money (that you don't need to survive) to engineers that are trying to solve these problems

and the people that say but it cuts down on pollution are right too but only to use it...

most of the hydrogen on the planet is locked in water and to get it out of the water you have to use electricity... most electricity is made by burning fossil fuels or with nuclear energy (and i'm assuming you don't like the nuclear way because you don't like the uranium bullets) so you don't pollute as much to drive instead you pollute to have your fuel.

p.s. hydrogen is so flamable it isn't even funny it makes gasoline look like water but it's lighter than oxygen so it burns in the air but people are stupid so they panic

we are working on getting it stable but like i said poor funding and the need to drive now are slowing that down...

and we will always need oil of some kind because metal does not mix well with metal and that's what car engines are they need lube
and they need tires which use oil
plastic uses oil
your dogs bowl.. probably made of plastic or stainless steel stainles steel is produced by burning coal which releases carbon dioxide steel is also used in the vehicles that transport these products that use fuel

we could not make the switch very efficiantly at best. how ever if our country took what we know about pollution reduction and shared it with the rest of the world they could be more efficiant too

but we wouldn't want to force our ways on them

we are using depleted uranium in bullets because it is very effective... uranium is a lot denser than lead and so can be used as armour piercing rounds very well and used as armor too... however we are not the only country that uses them iraq produces them too (they don't admit they use them... but why are the producing them then? they are definatly supporting the people that do) we just admit that we use them because the U.N. says we shouldn't use it if we don't have to but it is the most effective because it get's through armor and it is very cheap to produce. this is also depleted uranium which is about half as radio active and most of the problems associated with it come more from heavy metal poisoning than radiation. gold dust would be hazardous too now if only we found a way to make gold bullets affordable eh? and when it's used in armor plating it is sanwhiched inbetween steel so how is that producing dust unless our troops are being shot at with armor piercing rounds as well... those are probably tungsten or uranium the latter being cheaper... so i'm betting that's what it is

some one said that there should be no church in government... and that the founding fathers knew what they were doing....

that's the most contradictory thing i have heard why do you think our motto is "in god we trust" and the plege of allegence says "one nation under god"?

the forefathers wanted church in government but not the other way around... in england the church was not giving them religous freedom that's why the people that came here were called pilgrims (a pilgrim is someone who makes a religous journey btw) and this god... no matter your relion (except buddism) for the most part is the same god... most religions belive that... teh controvercy (except for the middle eastern stuff going on today) didnt' start until christ was alive...(yes christ was a real person)

christians believe he was the son of god
jews think he was just a crazy guy
muslims think he was a prophet
not sure what buddists thought

the middle eastern controvercy now...

well abraham... who was in the bible.. strang how there is a lot of real people and events in such a ficticious book huh? promised one sons birth rights to another son well that son is where the jewish decendents... almost all of them come from

well these jews left the area and then it was taken by the muslims

well then the jews came back and they were like this is our promised land get out!

and the muslims were like nuh uh you didn't call seat backs .

and it's been a fight ever since

and for you that say christians are total hypocrits... you are totally RIGHT!

ghandi once said to a christian dude

"i like your christ but not your christians"

which is true most people that claim to be christians are total hypocrits and bring a bad name to the religion

so don't be down on that religion cause people lie

instead look at people actions and you can tell how christ like the really are

some one else in the thread said that bush has the same mentality as the KKK

which is totally backwards in this case cause it's the muslims that do the jihidists think that the world is an evil place and christians are the cause of it
(well big surprise our fore fathers were christians so that makes us a christian nation)

only problem is most people in this nation aren't christians or at least not good ones

so think of what our nation does i mean we have lots of sex our women run around in bikinis we steal from people and kill people

all these especially the women part is outregous to the muslims and so they are trying to wipe the filth out of the world... and well we are the filth because we are spoiled

and there isn't that much oil in alaska anymore either most of it is in canada now.. but if you want it go right on after it i mean you are gonna destroy all kinds of trees wildlife oxygen supply and pretty snow but i mean you gotta get to work right?

let's just ad the gay marriage subject to this...cause i like controvercy...

i claim to be a christian...

i don't care if you get married to a man or woman or not...

i don't think it's right but that's my opinion i also think god gave us freedom of choice and who am i to say what you should chose? i'm not gonna do it though

[asd]

holy crap. I just read username?tim?'s whole post. And i agree with everything in it.

I don't think Bush was the best presidant, but he's not as bad as the media makes him sound.

It is an unwritten law, when the media digs up bad crap about someone (like Bush, or celebraties) it makes more people interested, and more likely to buy the magazine/newspaper/watch their t.v. shows than if they said good things about them. It creates more gossip that way, and I'm sure the media will stretch the truth to get the information that people want.

Yeah, theirs many things we don't know about the government. **** is so corrupt over their. We have no idea whats going on. for real.

[username? tim?]

ha ha i'm surprised someone read that whole thing

[booboo]

Well, I read your posts too.(or atleast tried to, your writing style doesn't exactly lend itself to easy comprehension and you coud do well to try and keep your sentences on one topic, or at least finish). I am assuming you haven't read the rest of thread. I assume this because you make the same false assumptions that others have made here. These assumptions have been rebutted already. I can understand a reply to the rebuttal but you have simply repeated the argument which indicates ignorance.

In any case, as SnowWolf has already stated, the Bush Administration used many various statements to justify its invasion of Iraq. There was no evidence of WMD's and no evidence of Saddam harbouring terrorists. The UN inspectors were in there until America told them to leave becasue they were going to invade anyway. In the time they were there they did not find any evidence whatsoever.

I think we can all agree that Saddam was a bad man. However, if you think he is bad for murdering innocent Iraqis then you must really be pissed with good ol' George who has now murdered almost50,000 of them. This is far worse than anything Saddam ever did.

Perhaps you could explain why the USA saw it as their mandate to invade a foreign country abd remove its leader? As a member of the UN it was illegal to do such a thing. Bush was warned of this but went ahead anyway. So now we have an illegal war based on false pretences.

Man, I was reading through this thread thinking 'Man I'm glad there are Americans who are not sucked into the propaganda thing. It makes me happy and restores some faith .' But then I read your dribble. You are a poster-boy for the ignorant redneck stereotype that permeates through the rest of the world. Do you wonder why the USA is the most hated country in the world? Look in the mirror, the answer is right there. That may sound quite harsh. Good, it's supposed to. You are a retard.

No go read up on the Project For A New American Century. You will find that the plans for invading Iraq and establishing the oil pipeline that goes through Turkey and Afghanistan were created by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz et al during the Reagan administration. That the 80's. When America was supplying Iraq with WMD's. These plans were started during bush Snrs reign, paused for a while during Clintons presidency and then restarted during Bush Jnrs time at the top.

[username? tim?]

trust me i'm not a poster boy for anything

[Sonya]

Thank you, booboo, for the above. My rant was going to be similar, so I'll save you all from that, for now.

Randomly, in another response to a section of username?tim?'s lengthy post - you went on for a couple of paragraphs about hydrogen power, as if that was our only alternative to gasoline power. What about solar power? Electricity? Vegetable oil? The diesel engine was initially invented to run on natural vegetable oils.
I spent my entire childhood being driven in, and driving, alternatively powered vehicles. Some of them plugged into the wall outlet in the garage. One of them traveled the entire length of the Australian continent on solar power alone.
Yes, it would cost our country money to convert the mainstream to alternative sources of fuel, but guess what? Wars over oil territories - wars that are generations old - cost us money too. And the costs are so much higher. The money means nothing when so many people are dying.
A new industry kills no one. It provides more jobs. And you know what? Sunshine is free. And with global warming, we're going to get a hell of a lot more of it.

(Sorry, I know that that is completely off topic for where this thread started, but that's where I took it...)

[username? tim?]

i was on hydrogen cause that's what everyone talks about... and solar power isn't that efficiean cause you need sunlight and it's cloudy most places

vegitable oil works too but people would still have to convert all the cars to run on that and people are too lazy to do that

and i didn't say the wars weren't expensive, i'm saying people don't give a **** about that cause most people don't care that much about other people
and because they don't care about everyone else it's gonna take a long time for people to switch over because it will inconvinience them

[kyew77]

im with tim.

[jon1976]

I want to start by saying hey everyone, and hope the summer went well.

Does anyone here know that the Constitution states that we (the U.S.) aren't to have a standing army for more than two years. We are only to have a Navy full-time.....to defend ourselves.

Just wondering if anyone else has heard of this.

Anyhow, glad to be back.

Snows coming.

[jon1976]

Hey Tim,

you are funny bro. Hahaha. Did you know that even on cloudy rainy days there is still an abundance of solar emittance to be harnessed?

Pretty neat huh?

[JTmfer]

[quote=booboo;128723]
I think we can all agree that Saddam was a bad man. However, if you think he is bad for murdering innocent Iraqis then you must really be pissed with good ol' George who has now murdered almost50,000 of them. This is far worse than anything Saddam ever did.
quote]

GW has not murdered 50,000 INNOCENT Iraqi's. The majority of the Iraqis killed by American troops were not citizens of Iraq to begin with. Most of them come from Syria and Iran to help spread the terrorist group we all know as Al Queda. Most of these killings are also a result of self defense... US (other nations participating as well) soldiers are not killing people for no reason, they are acting in self defense. Saddam was violently torturing and murdering HIS OWN CITIZENS for no reason at all.

I was in Iraq for 11 months and 23 days as a member of the NJ Army National Guard and there is definitely progress being made. Before I go into detail, let me state that I am by no means a Bush supporter or a supporter of the decision to launch a pre-emptive war on Iraq.

Anyway, here are some things I noticed in my year (almost) long tour of duty:
-Women's rights: women had absolutly no rights at all. Now some are working, they can go to school, and they don't all wear the mask things.
-USA acceptance: Local Iraqis love the sight of US troops. It makes them feel safe and they trust us. They fear that showing support however, will get them killed by Al Queda members.
-Voter turnout: I played an active role in the first national election in Iraq and the turnout was great. About 60 % of all citizens voted!!! That's amazing considering the risks each one had to face to place their votes.

Nobody reports the positive sides of this war, but there are a few. Don't be so one sided that you neglect to acknowledge all facts. And for all you people that are getting your information from Farenheit 911, go rent or download Farenhype 911 which exposes the fallacies of Michael Moore's impeachment attempt.

[username? tim?]

dude you are one arrogant f*** solar cars are made of carbon fiber or kevlar with as light of material as possible and usually only seat 1 or 2 people if it got in an accident with anyother car on the road it would be destroyed and who ever was in it would probably be killed
if they made a car that could carry four or five people and made the frame and body stong enough to pass safety tests the cars would not be light enough to stay efficient
efficiency isn't just about it being able to move

[NCC-1701]

GW has not murdered 50,000 INNOCENT Iraqi's. The majority of the Iraqis killed by American troops were not citizens of Iraq to begin with. Most of them come from Syria and Iran to help spread the terrorist group we all know as Al Queda. Most of these killings are also a result of self defense... US (other nations participating as well) soldiers are not killing people for no reason, they are acting in self defense. Saddam was violently torturing and murdering HIS OWN CITIZENS for no reason at all.

Actually, we are looking at about 650,000 deaths according to the World Health organization and yes you are correct about a significant percentage being foriegn fighters, but there were tens of thousand killed in the initial air campaign before Shrub played dress up and sauntered onto the deck of the Abraham Lincoln and annonounced "mission accomplished" now 3 years ago!!! A great percentage of the insugency are Iraqi people and the current violence that is going on unchecked is the result of a de facto civil war between the Shiates and the Sunies. While most of the deaths occurring now are not at the hands of the Americans, it is our actions of pre emptive war without sufficient troop strength to secure Iraq after the invasion, that is still the root cause of these deaths as surely as if we pulled the trigger. Powell and much of the military leadership as well as Shrub`s dad warned of this situation, but Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle all convinced Shrub that it would be over in under 6 months (Rumsfelds own words).

Yeah, Saddam was an evil son of a bitch and I am glad he`s gone (should be dead) but what he did is nothing out of the ordinary compared to other dictators the United States has backed. The Shah of Iran killed more of his own than Saddam did and we loved that guy and we want to tople Iran and put the Shah`s nephew in power. The problem is this doctrine of Pax Americana as advocated by the Project Foe a New American Century that all these war mongers are a part of. Look up their website and read what their agenda is as see how it is all playing out.



Anyway, here are some things I noticed in my year (almost) long tour of duty:
-Women's rights: women had absolutly no rights at all. Now some are working, they can go to school, and they don't all wear the mask things.
-USA acceptance: Local Iraqis love the sight of US troops. It makes them feel safe and they trust us. They fear that showing support however, will get them killed by Al Queda members.
-Voter turnout: I played an active role in the first national election in Iraq and the turnout was great. About 60 % of all citizens voted!!! That's amazing considering the risks each one had to face to place their votes.

As far as women`s rights and other issues of civil liberties go, Saddam`s Iraq was the most western, secular regime in the region. Certainly more democratic that Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yes, I am glad in some areas of the Green Zone things are improving, but I don`t think it is honest to claim we have improved Iraq untill we bring it up to a pre war level with reliable, water, power, sewer, gas, and infrastructure. It is still a complete craphole and Haliburton/KBR is not performing the job they were contacted to do. In some areas of Iraq I am sure you saw some of this, but it is not true for much of Iraq. For example, My best freind is serving right now in Ramadi training Iraqi Police and it is exactly 180 degrees opposite of what you experienced here. My other friend drove truck for KBR and the Iraqi people don`t throw flowers and welcome the Americans, they throw EID`s.


Nobody reports the positive sides of this war, but there are a few. Don't be so one sided that you neglect to acknowledge all facts. And for all you people that are getting your information from Farenheit 911, go rent or download Farenhype 911 which exposes the fallacies of Michael Moore's impeachment attempt.

The few might be Faux News or Rush Limbaugh....the entire rest of the planet sees what we don`t get to see from our corporate media who happen to big bisiness cronies of the Republican party. Sure individual reporters and anchors may have a liberal bias, but the editing goes on from the top brass. Why is it to this day, American`s are not allowed to collectively pay their respects to our fallen heros by having the flag draped coffins honored on the news? Read foreign papers, watch foreign tellevision and listen to short wave radio and you will se that yes our media is bias, but not in the way you think. Well, just because Michale Moore is full of drama and hype, does not neccessarily mean his facts are incorect. This is a case where, to most people, the information is good, but the delivery sucks. Even an asshat can be right some of the time.

Please don`t take my disagreement to come accross as a lack of respect or gratitude for what you did over there. Thanks for serving your country. As a veteran myself I see all military personell as brothers and sisters. My issue is with the civillian leadership not the military. These asshats betrayed you guys most of all.

[optionNFAripper]

it's mentality leik that that drives the KKK, and it's peopel who act leik that whcih makes the peole over there hate us even more. plus, if you go oevr there and start "popping heads" they will most likely try you as a war criminal and then execute you before a firing squad. that is unless the extreamists don't get hodl of you first and kill you. you don't seem to have the understanding of what people are liek over there, so let me fill you in:
-most peoepl over there are nto crazy muslim or islamic extreamists. they extreamists only make up a small percentage of the peopel over there.


now when i use the term "popping heads", its not meant to be taken literally, im not a dumba** i know you cant just shoot the Sh** outa people. i also know that most people, like 99.9% of the people, over in iraq are peaceful people, its the other .1% that straps bombs to themselves and wages a "holy war" against the "infidels" that bugs the hell outa me. that mentality has nothing to do with the KKK or any of that crap. the KKK is an ignorant terrorist white supremacist group, wanting to go over to iraq and serve your country while popping jihadists and helping liberate the iraqi people in the process is what most people call honorable and patriotic and i have deep respect for everyone involved in that process, so im failing to find the correllation between a blind act of hatred such as the kkk commits, and an act of patriotism. dont take everything so literal