Bush is doing again in Iran!

[Snow Wolf]

Okay the same tired, worn out old playbook is now being used with regard to invading Iran. We are getting the same old rhetoric about WMD`s a tyrranical leader and spreading democracy. This time though, the fanatic is toying around with using tactical nuclear weapons to destroy "secret underground bunkers housing Irans nuclear technology" If this madman sets off nukes in a middle easetern islamic republic all hell is going to break loose. Russia has already stated they will respond militarily to an attack...they are bound by treaty with Iran to do so. I also do not think China will sit idly by as thousands of their people die from radioactive fallout that drifts over their country as a result of these insane, murderous, sons of a bitches! This madman won`t stop untill he unleashes WW3 and nuclear winter on the world. If the American people won`t take this bastard out of power legally, then it`s time for foreign governments to intervene to rid the world of this monster!!

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact

[CustomRider13]

interesting article. Based on that article, I'm sure sitting down with the Iranians is not a bad idea but something needs to be done about their nuclear program. A country with a president like that doesn't need to have nuclear capabilities.

[thedude]

customrider13, nobody should have nukes in the first place. i swear, if the bush administration even acst ont his, i will buy a ****ign gun and kill the bastard myself and all his golf buddies

[CustomRider13]

customrider13, nobody should have nukes in the first place. i swear, if the bush administration even acst ont his, i will buy a ****ign gun and kill the bastard myself and all his golf buddies
nobody should have nukes at all, but it's something that's already done and countries will not disarm. The focus right now is to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. The president of Iran, like Kim Il Sung of North Korea, is not someone who should have nuclear weapons capabilities.

[Snow Wolf]

The president of the United States is not someone who should have nuclear capabilities....will you support the United Nations`s efforts to disarm America? If not then you are being a hypocrite. Besides, there are better ways to deal with nuclear proliferation than to use nukes to force a nation to disarm...besides, how many times to you need to be lied to by this freak before you figure out he cant be taken at his word.

[CustomRider13]

The president of the United States is not someone who should have nuclear capabilities....will you support the United Nations`s efforts to disarm America? If not then you are being a hypocrite.
That is a circumstancial question. Unless every country decided to disarm, we don't need to disarm.

Besides, there are better ways to deal with nuclear proliferation than to use nukes to force a nation to disarm...besides, how many times to you need to be lied to by this freak before you figure out he cant be taken at his word.
I never said we should use nuclear weapons against Iran but I do recall myself saying that sitting dow with the Iranians would be a good idea.

[Snow_bunny18]

customrider13, nobody should have nukes in the first place. i swear, if the bush administration even acst ont his, i will buy a ****ign gun and kill the bastard myself and all his golf buddies
I like how you refered to the whole administration rather than blaming it all on bush. President Bush is a scapegoat and thats all. But by saying you'll get a gun and shoot him Does lable you as a terrorist, even if it does do the world good to be rid of another Idiot.

[Nephyte]

nobody should have nukes at all, but it's something that's already done and countries will not disarm. The focus right now is to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. The president of Iran, like Kim Il Sung of North Korea, is not someone who should have nuclear weapons capabilities.


First of all: What makes it so great for Bush to have the ability to use nukes?

Secondly: American's seem to get pretty up in arms about other countries not being responsible enough to have nuclear arms. Seems to me, that American's are one of the first countries to resort to armed expeditions in the past several decades, getting involved in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia and quite a few other countries.

Third: The US is the only country to have ever employed Nukes against the CIVILIAN's of another country, so get off the moral high horse eh?

[CustomRider13]

First of all: What makes it so great for Bush to have the ability to use nukes?

Secondly: American's seem to get pretty up in arms about other countries not being responsible enough to have nuclear arms. Seems to me, that American's are one of the first countries to resort to armed expeditions in the past several decades, getting involved in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia and quite a few other countries.

Third: The US is the only country to have ever employed Nukes against the CIVILIAN's of another country, so get off the moral high horse eh?

Who said it was great for Bush to have ability to use nukes?

Do you think American's are the only people that are worried about Iran arming themselves with nukes? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia are different stories, so lets not group them up with this story.

You're ok with Iran having nuclear weapons capabilities?

[NEFFsteeze]

First of all most of you people gotta get your facts straight. The US isn't gunna use any nuclear weapons cuz it was turned down by the military officials and the pentagon. This which has not been released to the press. I know of this because my dad is one of the top ranking Officers in the ARMY in the state of New York.

Another thing is how everybody critisizes GWB. Saying hes a terrorist and all that bullsh!t. When a country in run by a power hungry dictator who kills his own people for no apparent reason? Thats when we should step in and we did. We are currently helping to rebuild Iraq just like we helped to rebuild japan after WW2.

Vietnam does make sense when you look at the time frame it was in. It was during the cold war and the US was following their policy of containment (policy of keeping communism from spreading). Vietnam split to north and south after years of fighting and north was commy and south was democratic. Our policies of that time were to help any country in threat of being overrun by communists and we did. It might not of been succesful but we tried to help and thats what we do as a world power.

Afganistan has a ligitamit(not sure how to spell it) reason for the invasion. does 911 ring a bell to anyone? We didn't launch a war on afganistan, we invaded afganistan to find the terrorists which we have found most of. Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911.

in my opinion if you people have such a problem with this country, why don't you just leave.

[Sonya]

Another thing is how everybody critisizes GWB. Saying hes a terrorist and all that bullsh!t. When a country in run by a power hungry dictator who kills his own people for no apparent reason?

Power hungry? Killing his own citizens for no reason? Sounds a lot like our dear president Bush to me. They've already admitted there wasn't reason to attack Iraq... and how many Americans have died needlesly for that?

[CustomRider13]

First of all most of you people gotta get your facts straight. The US isn't gunna use any nuclear weapons cuz it was turned down by the military officials and the pentagon. This which has not been released to the press. I know of this because my dad is one of the top ranking Officers in the ARMY in the state of New York.

Another thing is how everybody critisizes GWB. Saying hes a terrorist and all that bullsh!t. When a country in run by a power hungry dictator who kills his own people for no apparent reason? Thats when we should step in and we did. We are currently helping to rebuild Iraq just like we helped to rebuild japan after WW2.

Vietnam does make sense when you look at the time frame it was in. It was during the cold war and the US was following their policy of containment (policy of keeping communism from spreading). Vietnam split to north and south after years of fighting and north was commy and south was democratic. Our policies of that time were to help any country in threat of being overrun by communists and we did. It might not of been succesful but we tried to help and thats what we do as a world power.

Afganistan has a ligitamit(not sure how to spell it) reason for the invasion. does 911 ring a bell to anyone? We didn't launch a war on afganistan, we invaded afganistan to find the terrorists which we have found most of. Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911.

in my opinion if you people have such a problem with this country, why don't you just leave.
Finally, somebody else who knows there history. Now, I don't need to explain everything. :biggrin1:

[SimonInAustralia]

Afganistan has a ligitamit(not sure how to spell it) reason for the invasion. does 911 ring a bell to anyone? We didn't launch a war on afganistan, we invaded afganistan to find the terrorists which we have found most of. Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911.I have read that less than 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, but over 3000 civilians have died in Afghanistan since the US invaded.

So, you are talking sh!t yet again!

[Snow Wolf]

Oh you`re so cavalier about death..."Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911." Are you really that damn stupid???? Bush has killed 2300 some odd US servicemen, well over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, about 23,000 in Afghanistanis and now its of to Iran....can you f*cking count or were you listening to Limbaugh through math class?????
yeah 9-11 rings a bell and Bush allowed it to happen through either total incompetence or direct involvement. Here again you show your total ignorance.....13 of the 19 alleged hijackers were Suadi....why did`nt we attack Suadi Arabia? They got their Financing through U.A.E. and now this idoit wants to let them run our port security. If you think the Bush Bastard is so great on security then why did he and Cheney deliberately out CIA operative Vallery Plaim after her husband Joe Wilson disputed the idiots claim that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake uranium which was false....by the way Vellery Plaim`s assignment was in Iran and gathering intelligence about Iran`s nuclear program which ALL indications were it was for power generation. Once again the US becomes Isreals pawn doing her dirty work. Afghanistan was attacked so that Unocal could get their pipeline finished as the Taliban were not cooperating. Irag had nothing to do with 9-11 and had no ties to Al queida and as far as getting up your high horse about him being a dictator....well so was Pinoche of Chile one the Bush crime family`s buddies...this guy put live rats in womens vaginas to chew their way out...also there is the situation in Darfur, Sudan....why are`nt we doing something about that....you and your dad are brainwashed by Fox News, Limbaugh, Hanity and all the other right wing freaks!!! You wanna talk about knowing history...you don`t know sh!t...read about PNAC and how the plans to invade Iraq as part of a scheme for world domination by the US have been in place long before 9-11. And your dad does not know all....read the freakin news...the White House is still refusing to walkback the nuclear option...thats the facts..... Also you wanna talk about history.....why don`t you study the Enabling Act of 1933 and how Hitler used it to sieze total power in Germany and then compare it to what the USA Patriot Act does and how the Bush Bastard is trashing your Constitutional Rights...and you stupid, brain dead sheep will let him because you keep falling for the same lies and fear mongering. All he has to do is stutter and stammer like the retard he is about terror and spreading freedom and you right wingers bend over and spread your ass cheeks for him and say "thank you may I have another sir" I don`t give a rats ass what happens to the right wing freaks, but don`t take the rest of the sane world out with you. Jesus you right wingers are stupid!! So don`t freaking attempt to lecture the rest of us about history.......the entire world and all but the 36% percent freak jobs who support this bastard in America get it. Oh and another thing........you`re 16 or so it shows....I hope you enjoy paying off GWB`s $9 trillion dollar debt! As far as getting the terrorist....ugh its been almost 5 years since 9-11-01 and guess what Osama is still free and Bush is quoted as saying he is`nt concerned about him......and your totally stupid, ignorant comment about leaving the country if we don`t agree....WTF ...don`t you get the most basic idea behind our Republic...dissent is the highest form of patriotism.....no one here has EVER said they hated America, we hate the bastard squatting in OUR White House and we want to change that...Seems to me YOU have a problem with democracy.......you would make an excellent Nazi with your attitude

[FTR_NICK]

Oh you`re so cavalier about death..."Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911." Are you really that damn stupid???? Bush has killed 2300 some odd US servicemen, well over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, about 23,000 in Afghanistanis and now its of to Iran....can you f*cking count or were you listening to Limbaugh through math class?????
yeah 9-11 rings a bell and Bush allowed it to happen through either total incompetence or direct involvement. Here again you show your total ignorance.....13 of the 19 alleged hijackers were Suadi....why did`nt we attack Suadi Arabia? They got their Financing through U.A.E. and now this idoit wants to let them run our port security. If you think the Bush Bastard is so great on security then why did he and Cheney deliberately out CIA operative Vallery Plaim after her husband Joe Wilson disputed the idiots claim that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake uranium which was false....by the way Vellery Plaim`s assignment was in Iran and gathering intelligence about Iran`s nuclear program which ALL indications were it was for power generation. Once again the US becomes Isreals pawn doing her dirty work. Afghanistan was attacked so that Unocal could get their pipeline finished as the Taliban were not cooperating. Irag had nothing to do with 9-11 and had no ties to Al queida and as far as getting up your high horse about him being a dictator....well so was Pinoche of Chile one the Bush crime family`s buddies...this guy put live rats in womens vaginas to chew their way out...also there is the situation in Darfur, Sudan....why are`nt we doing something about that....you and your dad are brainwashed by Fox News, Limbaugh, Hanity and all the other right wing freaks!!! You wanna talk about knowing history...you don`t know sh!t...read about PNAC and how the plans to invade Iraq as part of a scheme for world domination by the US have been in place long before 9-11. And your dad does not know all....read the freakin news...the White House is still refusing to walkback the nuclear option...thats the facts..... Also you wanna talk about history.....why don`t you study the Enabling Act of 1933 and how Hitler used it to sieze total power in Germany and then compare it to what the USA Patriot Act does and how the Bush Bastard is trashing your Constitutional Rights...and you stupid, brain dead sheep will let him because you keep falling for the same lies and fear mongering. All he has to do is stutter and stammer like the retard he is about terror and spreading freedom and you right wingers bend over and spread your ass cheeks for him and say "thank you may I have another sir" I don`t give a rats ass what happens to the right wing freaks, but don`t take the rest of the sane world out with you. Jesus you right wingers are stupid!! So don`t freaking attempt to lecture the rest of us about history.......the entire world and all but the 36% percent freak jobs who support this bastard in America get it. Oh and another thing........you`re 16 or so it shows....I hope you enjoy paying off GWB`s $9 trillion dollar debt!



ummmm
I have nothing else to say

AMEN

[Sonya]

Thank you, Snow Wolf. Well said.

[SnowGeek]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't think he'll get away with it this time. His popularity is at an all-time low; people are sensitive to his tricks; and lots of conservatives (even George Will) seem to be distancing themselves from him.

What worries me is that we'll suddenly get another terrorist "attack" that will scare everybody and presumably involve Iran.

[NEFFsteeze]

I have read that less than 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, but over 3000 civilians have died in Afghanistan since the US invaded.

So, you are talking sh!t yet again!

oh man. Actually less than 3000 was the confirmed number of deaths. There are another 600 estimated people who were not found so they could not give it the title of a death. They are in the missing category.

So, im not talking sh!t yet again!

[NEFFsteeze]

another thing is that i could care less if its wrong that the we invade a country. My uncle died in 911. Out in washington you don't even experience anything close to a terrorist attack. Sure its "real" to you that it happened but try losing a family member to it. Then you'll see your opinion in the whole matter.

[Snow_bunny18]

First of all most of you people gotta get your facts straight. The US isn't gunna use any nuclear weapons cuz it was turned down by the military officials and the pentagon. This which has not been released to the press. I know of this because my dad is one of the top ranking Officers in the ARMY in the state of New York.

Another thing is how everybody critisizes GWB. Saying hes a terrorist and all that bullsh!t. When a country in run by a power hungry dictator who kills his own people for no apparent reason? Thats when we should step in and we did. We are currently helping to rebuild Iraq just like we helped to rebuild japan after WW2.

Vietnam does make sense when you look at the time frame it was in. It was during the cold war and the US was following their policy of containment (policy of keeping communism from spreading). Vietnam split to north and south after years of fighting and north was commy and south was democratic. Our policies of that time were to help any country in threat of being overrun by communists and we did. It might not of been succesful but we tried to help and thats what we do as a world power.

Afganistan has a ligitamit(not sure how to spell it) reason for the invasion. does 911 ring a bell to anyone? We didn't launch a war on afganistan, we invaded afganistan to find the terrorists which we have found most of. Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911.

in my opinion if you people have such a problem with this country, why don't you just leave.
Now why exactly did we help rebuild Japn...umm nuclear weapons sounds familiar? didn't we go **** their world over? we are the reason why 2/3 of iraq don't even have running water right now because we fuced that up too. so how exactly are we helping out sooooo much.
And its not the country that we have a problem with its the people running it.

[Snow_bunny18]

First of all most of you people gotta get your facts straight. The US isn't gunna use any nuclear weapons cuz it was turned down by the military officials and the pentagon. This which has not been released to the press. I know of this because my dad is one of the top ranking Officers in the ARMY in the state of New York.

Another thing is how everybody critisizes GWB. Saying hes a terrorist and all that bullsh!t. When a country in run by a power hungry dictator who kills his own people for no apparent reason? Thats when we should step in and we did. We are currently helping to rebuild Iraq just like we helped to rebuild japan after WW2.

Vietnam does make sense when you look at the time frame it was in. It was during the cold war and the US was following their policy of containment (policy of keeping communism from spreading). Vietnam split to north and south after years of fighting and north was commy and south was democratic. Our policies of that time were to help any country in threat of being overrun by communists and we did. It might not of been succesful but we tried to help and thats what we do as a world power.

Afganistan has a ligitamit(not sure how to spell it) reason for the invasion. does 911 ring a bell to anyone? We didn't launch a war on afganistan, we invaded afganistan to find the terrorists which we have found most of. Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911.

in my opinion if you people have such a problem with this country, why don't you just leave.
Exactly why did we help rebuild japan...umm nuclear weapons sound familiar?
Also, we are the reason why Iraq doesn't even have running water (anymore) for 2/3 of their country. So exactly how are we helping out soooo much?
And its not the country alot of people hate, Its the people running it.

[Snow Wolf]

another thing is that i could care less if its wrong that the we invade a country. My uncle died in 911. Out in washington you don't even experience anything close to a terrorist attack. Sure its "real" to you that it happened but try losing a family member to it. Then you'll see your opinion in the whole matter.

Hey man...sorry for your loss....really, my condolences to you and your family!

You can lay the blame for that loss right where it belongs....George W Bush.....he let 9-11 happen. Richard Clark tried and tried to get this administrations attention and they were so obsessed with invading Iraq since as early as 1998 they would not even listen to the intel about Al Queida....you have been totally betrayed by this president. Us in the middle to the left are trying to fix things before he makes things even worse....do the research and be intellectually honest and objective and you will see it too.

As far as us out in Washington, lots of people everywhere had friends and family in the WTC so I am sure it has affected some Washingtonians. Also, we came very close in 200 when the Millenium plot was foiled....a terrorist was captured crossing into Washington from Canada with plans to blow up the Seattle Space Needle....President Clinton`s anti terrorism team thwarted the attack....it was under Bush that the terrorist were able to strike within our borders....Clinton took terrorism seriously.....he was a great president who had issues in his personal life that was not our business....that was between him and Hillary to work out! The Republican infested House of Representatives chose to impeach Clinton for lying about having sex with Mokica, but the same congress won`t impeach Bush for lying about going to war.
Besides we are ALL Americans so it affects us all...and right after 9-11 the whole world was with us....they even played our national anthem in France....Bush has sh!t all over that international good will.

Again, sorry for you personal loss!

[Snow Wolf]

You're ok with Iran having nuclear weapons capabilities?


About Iran`s nuclear program:

Currently they have just announced they have enriched Uranium....everyone is going bananas due in part to the Bush administrations fear mongering....but here are some facts about Iran and nuclear weapons from the IAEA.

Currently Iran has about 164 cetrifuges and has enriched Uranium about 3.5% basically enough to make Irridium that was used in old glow in the dark watches. In order to get fissionable U235 for a crude atomic bomb, they would need to get Uranium enriched to about 80% and would need about 1600 cetrifuges. The IAEA estimates that the earliest they could concievably have a crude atomic bomb is at least 10 years off. Simply put, even IF Iran was intent on making weapons not nuclear energy, there is NO urgent need to use military force (conventional or tactical nuclear) any time soon. This is once again part of the overall PNAC strategy for global domination....key to this is a permanent US military presence in the middle east and total control of the oil reserves. Bush is turning our great country into a rougue terrorist state. Don`t buy into his dire rhetoric again...he did this in the lead upo to the Iraq invasion...remember the mushroom cloud speach?

[CustomRider13]

Exactly why did we help rebuild japan...umm nuclear weapons sound familiar?
Also, we are the reason why Iraq doesn't even have running water (anymore) for 2/3 of their country. So exactly how are we helping out soooo much?
And its not the country alot of people hate, Its the people running it.
I am not saying that it was a good decision for us to nuke Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but it could be looked at in many different ways. First, we wanted to show the Soviets and the world what we had. Second, it could be said that we spent alot of money in creating this catastrophy, that it would be a waste to let it sit. Third, the US decided to nuke Japan to prevent losses on both sides if were to continue the war conventionally. Even after the Germans surrendered, the Japanese kept fighting. They knew they were going to lose but they were proud people and they would've kept fighting if we didn't use the nukes. I also would like to note that the US did warn the emperor of Japan before the first bomb hit Hiroshima and before the second bomb hit Nagasaki. The emperor did not surrender even after the first bomb. That shows how proud they are.
The US did not need to help rebuild Japan because they were fighting with each other, but they did. Today, Japan is an ally of the US.
You can't completely blame the US for the water situation over in Iraq. A big problem with the water systems not providing enough water to the Iraqi people is because terrorist are sabotaging them.
I think we are doing positive things for Iraq. I'm not saying everything that is happening in Iraq is positive but it's not as bad as what the media make it seem. Remember, the media is in the business of selling you stories to get your attention and bad news is always good news in the media business.
I don't see why the Iraqi people wouldn't want democracy with someone like Hussein as their dictator. Why wouldn't the people want to have the right to a choice.

[CustomRider13]

I have read that less than 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, but over 3000 civilians have died in Afghanistan since the US invaded.

So, you are talking sh!t yet again!
I'm not saying we shouldn't take the blame for the deaths in Afghanistan, but I think it's a little different when ours was intended for the bad guys and theirs was intended to kill our civilians. We bombed Afghanistan with the purpose of hitting terrorist hideouts and gathering places. 9/11 happened with the purpose of killing the civilians.
The death count for 9/11 is about 2,998. So I guess you could say less then 3,000 in comparison to their 3,485.
I know people who have served in Afghanistan and alot of Afghani people do like us there.

[CustomRider13]

About Iran`s nuclear program:

Currently they have just announced they have enriched Uranium....everyone is going bananas due in part to the Bush administrations fear mongering....but here are some facts about Iran and nuclear weapons from the IAEA.

Currently Iran has about 164 cetrifuges and has enriched Uranium about 3.5% basically enough to make Irridium that was used in old glow in the dark watches. In order to get fissionable U235 for a crude atomic bomb, they would need to get Uranium enriched to about 80% and would need about 1600 cetrifuges. The IAEA estimates that the earliest they could concievably have a crude atomic bomb is at least 10 years off. Simply put, even IF Iran was intent on making weapons not nuclear energy, there is NO urgent need to use military force (conventional or tactical nuclear) any time soon. This is once again part of the overall PNAC strategy for global domination....key to this is a permanent US military presence in the middle east and total control of the oil reserves. Bush is turning our great country into a rougue terrorist state. Don`t buy into his dire rhetoric again...he did this in the lead upo to the Iraq invasion...remember the mushroom cloud speach?
So they are trying to enrich Uranium. We don't need any more countries with nuclear weapons. In my opinion, nuclear weapons equal power and power corrupts leaders. With our system, democracy, using nukes is not a decision made by one person. Well, besides our current situation, we are usually balanced (Bush, republicans.....).

[CustomRider13]

I would like to say........this war is not just about Bush’s special interest groups and friends, it’s also about fighting terrorism. Do not take credit away from these heroic servicemen/women who fought for us to try to secure our nation and the world from terroism. Thanks to these brave men and women, many terrorists were caught in Iraq and Afghanistan and it has made a difference. You can choose to look at just the negatives and talk but that will not change the situation.
Iraq, you could say we entered it because of oil or contracts, but was that the only reason and was that the main reason? There will always be a certain level of bias in any media because everyone has opinions and beliefs whether they think so or not. It could range from opinions, information left out, points emphasized and so on. There are some things we’ll never know till history unfolds itself but if it is not primary evidence, then it is not 100% and most of the time, it’s better not to assume when you don’t know the full details.
In my opinion, Saddam Hussein was a cruel leader and I am glad he’s been caught. This is something that needed to be done when Clinton was in office. He did bomb Iraq, but I don't think he had it in him to go any further.

Snow Wolf, if you want to compare somebody to Hitler, Saddam should be in line before Bush. Saddam and his Ba’ath party attempted genocide on some of the minority inhabitants of his country. But even though Saddam and his party attempted genocide, I think it’s a little extreme for anyone to compare him to Hitler. Hitler’s plan was to annihilate an entire race and dominate the world. He killed millions of Jews in ways that are disgusting and inhumane. Ovens, gas chambers, tossing infants and catching them by swords, burying them alive and so on. That is an evil man.
I think Bush is a bad president but not an evil man.
100,000 Iraqi civilians died…..there is many things to be said about it. Iraq is a war zone. You will have lots of civilian casualties during war. Were these people all killed by the US? Were some of these people killed by terrorists? Were they killed by people still loyal to the ba'ath party? Were these deaths accidental? 23,000 in Afghanistan? It’s actually around 12,000. About 8,500 soldiers and 3500 civilians. The US did not kill all these people, they died during war. Do not forget the resistance fighters and terrorists also take blame for these casualties.
The reason we didn’t attack Saudi Arabia, I wouldn’t know. There might be complications, other reasons we might haven’t or maybe there’s something fishy going on with the Bush administration. But that is something I cannot judge without proper primary evidence.
When I said Uninc knew his history, I was referring to his reply about vietnam and the cold war. I was going to mention that to the person who replied to my post. My lazy mistake for not indicating what I meant when I said, "someone knows his history. Now I don't need to explain."

[CustomRider13]

Oh you`re so cavalier about death..."Sure some people in afganistan lost their lives but nothing compare to the lives we lost in 911." Are you really that damn stupid???? Bush has killed 2300 some odd US servicemen, well over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, about 23,000 in Afghanistanis and now its of to Iran....can you f*cking count or were you listening to Limbaugh through math class?????
yeah 9-11 rings a bell and Bush allowed it to happen through either total incompetence or direct involvement. Here again you show your total ignorance.....13 of the 19 alleged hijackers were Suadi....why did`nt we attack Suadi Arabia? They got their Financing through U.A.E. and now this idoit wants to let them run our port security. If you think the Bush Bastard is so great on security then why did he and Cheney deliberately out CIA operative Vallery Plaim after her husband Joe Wilson disputed the idiots claim that Iraq was trying to buy yellow cake uranium which was false....by the way Vellery Plaim`s assignment was in Iran and gathering intelligence about Iran`s nuclear program which ALL indications were it was for power generation. Once again the US becomes Isreals pawn doing her dirty work. Afghanistan was attacked so that Unocal could get their pipeline finished as the Taliban were not cooperating. Irag had nothing to do with 9-11 and had no ties to Al queida and as far as getting up your high horse about him being a dictator....well so was Pinoche of Chile one the Bush crime family`s buddies...this guy put live rats in womens vaginas to chew their way out...also there is the situation in Darfur, Sudan....why are`nt we doing something about that....you and your dad are brainwashed by Fox News, Limbaugh, Hanity and all the other right wing freaks!!! You wanna talk about knowing history...you don`t know sh!t...read about PNAC and how the plans to invade Iraq as part of a scheme for world domination by the US have been in place long before 9-11. And your dad does not know all....read the freakin news...the White House is still refusing to walkback the nuclear option...thats the facts..... Also you wanna talk about history.....why don`t you study the Enabling Act of 1933 and how Hitler used it to sieze total power in Germany and then compare it to what the USA Patriot Act does and how the Bush Bastard is trashing your Constitutional Rights...and you stupid, brain dead sheep will let him because you keep falling for the same lies and fear mongering. All he has to do is stutter and stammer like the retard he is about terror and spreading freedom and you right wingers bend over and spread your ass cheeks for him and say "thank you may I have another sir" I don`t give a rats ass what happens to the right wing freaks, but don`t take the rest of the sane world out with you. Jesus you right wingers are stupid!! So don`t freaking attempt to lecture the rest of us about history.......the entire world and all but the 36% percent freak jobs who support this bastard in America get it. Oh and another thing........you`re 16 or so it shows....I hope you enjoy paying off GWB`s $9 trillion dollar debt! As far as getting the terrorist....ugh its been almost 5 years since 9-11-01 and guess what Osama is still free and Bush is quoted as saying he is`nt concerned about him......and your totally stupid, ignorant comment about leaving the country if we don`t agree....WTF ...don`t you get the most basic idea behind our Republic...dissent is the highest form of patriotism.....no one here has EVER said they hated America, we hate the bastard squatting in OUR White House and we want to change that...Seems to me YOU have a problem with democracy.......you would make an excellent Nazi with your attitude
Are you talking about the UAE the country or some people in the UAE. Are you aware that the UAE is an american ally and is presently in Afghanistan fighting along side American special forces against terrorist operatives?
In Sudan, it's a civil war. I don't know if it's neccessary for us to meddle in it. Iraq is different, it had a dictator and we wanted to free the people from him.
Do you have primary evidence that we are trying to take over the world and how are we taking over the world? Taking over a country would mean that we are countrolling their government. In Iraq and Afghanistan, they had an election for their own government. Side note......their democracy is better then ours. Each vote counts, unlike our system, we're a representative democracy. They decide what's going on with their country. We even let them trial Saddam.

[Snow Wolf]

My comparrison of Bush to Hitler is one of strategy...do a Google search on the "Enabling Act of 1933" and see how similar the tactics are.....no I don`t think Bush is "evil"....he is stupid and totally amoral and only cares about power and money. You keep saying how Sadam was a cruel dictator...yes I 100% agree, but don`t forget, it is the United States who put him in power and gave him the chemical weapons (which were banned by treaty) which he used on the Iranians and the Khurds. Donald Rumsfeld, under Ronald Reagan was instrumental in arming Sadam. The United States has a long history of backing ruthless dictators....the Shaw of Iran, Batista in Cuba, Pinoche in Chile, etc etc. This government has fueled terrorism....also, if you want to try to blame this on Clinton, that is intellectually dishonest......if you really want to go down that road, you better give a lot of blame to George Bush Senior as well as many others. Bottom line is we as the American people were told that we had to go to war with Iraq because they had WMD`s and were on the verge of nukes.....it was a lie plain and simple....even if you think we are doing wonderfull things in Iraq, which we are not ( I have several friends serving over there and 2 other friends working for KBR and we are not doing much to fix what we broke) you still have to deal with the fact that this president led our nation into war under false pretense and that is wrong. On the nuke thing with Iraq, you keep talking as though they are moments away from having the bomb....having nuclear technology is not the same as having nuclear weapons as I had hoped those stats would have shown. If you truly believed in what we are doing over there so strongly, why have you not enlisted in the military and supported the efort? By the way, yes I was in the military and did my 4 years. Oh and on the UAE, the governemt of the UAE is riddled with Al Queida and the alleged 9-11 hijackers were funded directly by the UAE....also, as far as world domination....look up what the Project For A New American Century has to say and look at who it`s prominent members are.

[thedude]

I would like to say........this war is not just about Bush’s special interest groups and friends, it’s also about fighting terrorism. Do not take credit away from these heroic servicemen/women who fought for us to try to secure our nation and the world from terroism. Thanks to these brave men and women, many terrorists were caught in Iraq and Afghanistan and it has made a difference.

nobody has has anythgn to bash the service men and women yet in thsi thread, so i have no clue why you are brining this up. they onyl reason why they are there is because they were ordered to, and by disobeying orders, they have commited treason against their country. and how many of them want to be on the goverment's "**** list?" not many

[RideTheory]

First of all: What makes it so great for Bush to have the ability to use nukes?

Secondly: American's seem to get pretty up in arms about other countries not being responsible enough to have nuclear arms. Seems to me, that American's are one of the first countries to resort to armed expeditions in the past several decades, getting involved in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia and quite a few other countries.

Third: The US is the only country to have ever employed Nukes against the CIVILIAN's of another country, so get off the moral high horse eh?

ok lets get a few things strait...America went to Vietnam because the French were trying to "Expand there empire" by makeing Vietnam one of there territories..so they rebelled..so america, being french allies, steped in to help...just like in WWII...and we all know why we went to Afghanistan...and about us usuing Nukes...yes we used it...because Japan would not surrender causing the U.S, French, British, Austrailians, and russians to losse more men in the Pacific..and it doesn't make anyone "great" to be able to use nukes...but last time i checked...the U.S. doesn't have a sadistic leader that only wants a nuclear program to use against other people as much as everyone would like to blame Bush for Everything...he isn't a terrorist...the leaders of Iran North Korea are...and the whole thing about the Russians "Have" to fight against us if we go to war with Iran is Crap...the russians will no more go to war with the U.S..then will china...now why the hell are we getting political on a "SNOWBOARDING" web site?

[SimonInAustralia]

now why the hell are we getting political on a "SNOWBOARDING" web site?Cause there is a forum on this snowboarding web site called politics...what else are people supposed to discuss in this forum?

[RideTheory]

Snowboarding politics...like...should Parkcity put in a Gondola...or should the Governor of all the states with ski resorts close school for Pow days...**** like that:)

[Snow Wolf]

Amen...the troops did and are doing their jobs well' its the idiot civillian leadership under Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld that are screwing the world up....they are the REAL terrorists including being behind 9-11 in the first place!!

[Snow Wolf]

ok lets get a few things strait...America went to Vietnam because the French were trying to "Expand there empire" by makeing Vietnam one of there territories..so they rebelled..so america, being french allies, steped in to help.

No actually, it was the influence from Senator Joe McCarthy who had Americans convinced we needed to fight Communism anywhere in the world.

..just like in WWII...

Uh....check your history again....America was reluctant to enter WWII and did not untill Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.....Germany was allied with Japan so we then also went to war against Hitler. A lot of speculation has been raised over whether FDR "let" Pearl Harbor get bombed so the American people would support entering into WWII


and we all know why we went to Afghanistan...

Unocal and the Trans-Afghan Pipeline......

and about us usuing Nukes...yes we used it...because Japan would not surrender causing the U.S, French, British, Austrailians, and russians to losse more men in the Pacific..and it doesn't make anyone "great" to be able to use nukes...

The one true thing in this post!



but last time i checked...the U.S. doesn't have a sadistic leader that only wants a nuclear program to use against other people as much as everyone would like to blame Bush for Everything...he isn't a terrorist..

I beg to differ...he is right up there with Stallin and Hitler.....My opinion only, but his actions have not done anything to change my opinion.



.the leaders of Iran North Korea are..

While we don`t like them, North Korea has never sponsored any act of terrorism, The current president of Iran has not been linked to terrorsim either.


.and the whole thing about the Russians "Have" to fight against us if we go to war with Iran is Crap...the russians will no more go to war with the U.S..then will china..

Yeah that is likely true, but it is because Vladimir Putin is sane and knows Bush is not. We will just have to see how China reacts after Bushies radioactive fallout cloud from Iran drifts over China and kills off their people.
.now why the hell are we getting political on a "SNOWBOARDING" web site?

Because this is the political forum on the SBA site

[RideTheory]

Because this is the political forum on the SBA site
Yes..a large part of why we went to Vietnam was the fear of spreading communism but we ACTUALLY were there origionaly to support the french..as they were trying to Regain there territorries that japan had taken control of in WWII...in 1950 truman pledged to give the french 15million to aid in there war campaign..and we also sent troops to Korea in that same year...it wasn't untill the french lost a Dien Bien Phu in may of 54' when they decided to pull out which left us there trying to pick up the pieces...would we have still gone to vietnam...probly..because of the fear of communism spreading and russia gaining power...but the U.S. went to Vietnam FIRST to help the French...i do know my history..and each person has there conspiracy theorys about every war including the whole..."we let pearl harbor happen so we would have an excuse to go to war" theory..yes i have heard that one...just like we only went to war with Iraq for Oil and thats why we want to Nuke Iran as well so "power hungry" bush can have all the oil he wants...the fact is that regardless of wheather or not the leaders of N. Korea and Iran aren't "Terrorists" doesn't change the fact that they don't need Nuclear weapons..Period!

[CustomRider13]

My comparrison of Bush to Hitler is one of strategy...do a Google search on the "Enabling Act of 1933" and see how similar the tactics are.....no I don`t think Bush is "evil"....he is stupid and totally amoral and only cares about power and money. You keep saying how Sadam was a cruel dictator...yes I 100% agree, but don`t forget, it is the United States who put him in power and gave him the chemical weapons (which were banned by treaty) which he used on the Iranians and the Khurds. Donald Rumsfeld, under Ronald Reagan was instrumental in arming Sadam. The United States has a long history of backing ruthless dictators....the Shaw of Iran, Batista in Cuba, Pinoche in Chile, etc etc. This government has fueled terrorism....also, if you want to try to blame this on Clinton, that is intellectually dishonest......if you really want to go down that road, you better give a lot of blame to George Bush Senior as well as many others. Bottom line is we as the American people were told that we had to go to war with Iraq because they had WMD`s and were on the verge of nukes.....it was a lie plain and simple....even if you think we are doing wonderfull things in Iraq, which we are not ( I have several friends serving over there and 2 other friends working for KBR and we are not doing much to fix what we broke) you still have to deal with the fact that this president led our nation into war under false pretense and that is wrong. On the nuke thing with Iraq, you keep talking as though they are moments away from having the bomb....having nuclear technology is not the same as having nuclear weapons as I had hoped those stats would have shown. If you truly believed in what we are doing over there so strongly, why have you not enlisted in the military and supported the efort? By the way, yes I was in the military and did my 4 years. Oh and on the UAE, the governemt of the UAE is riddled with Al Queida and the alleged 9-11 hijackers were funded directly by the UAE....also, as far as world domination....look up what the Project For A New American Century has to say and look at who it`s prominent members are.
The only reason why I see you making comparisons between Bush and Hitler would be to suggest to people that Bush can be compared to Hitler. Otherwise, there is no point of mentioning that.
You just said Bush isn't evil, but you do make it seem like he's an evil person. Making comparisons with Hitler, he's trying to dominate the world, he killed service and civilians and on and on.
From my knowledge, we did give Saddam weapons but I don't think we made him dictator of Iraq. He did work his way up with the baath party by threatening and assassinating members of the former government. Also, we gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran (there were issues with Iran at that time. They did take American hostages during Reagans term). Don't forget, the US was not the only country to provide Saddam with weapons, arms and technology. The other countries include Soviet Union, Germany, France and England. Soviet Union being the main provider of weapons.
"Intellectual dishonesty", I think you were being "intellectually dishonest" about the comparison you made with Bush and Hitler. There is nothing "intellectually dishonest" about what I said about Clinton. I said, Clinton should've taken care of the problem during his term. He should've, but he didn't and it got pawned off on the next president and that happened to be George W.. The reason I mentioned that is to let people know that Iraq isn't something Bush made up. It has been a problem before his term.
We have done wonderful things in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have friends in SF and intelligence who have or is serving over in Afghanistan and they work directly with Afghanis. They have no problems with the Americans. The reason we are in Afghanistan is to find terrorists and most of the terrorists we are looking for aren't even Afghani. They are just hiding out in Afghanistan.
It's wonderful that the Iraqi's are not being suppressed by Saddam anymore. What do your friends do in Iraq? Have you read anything about the psychological problems soldiers are having after Iraq? Do you think they have anything good to say about the Iraqi people?
I don't know too many details about Bush leading us into war under false pretense, but like I said, it was an issue before Bush's administration. I don't know if Iraq had the weapons of mass destruction but I can't say for sure if they did or not. So, I will leave that alone.
About Nukes in Iran, should we wait until they are almost done making it? We know about it right now, so why shouldn't we act on it right now? We need to be tough with them and I don't think waiting would send them a message that we're serious.
I am not completely for the war, but I'm not completely against it. When were you in the service? Did you go to Iraq?
The government of the UAE is riddled with Al Quaeda and they funded the alleged 9-11 hijackers but they are fighting alongside SF's in Afghanistan to catch terrorists? That doesn't make sense. By the way, they have caught more then half of the most wanted terrorists leaders and many were caught in Afghanistan.
You would have to enlighten me about PNAC. What names am I looking for?

[CustomRider13]

nobody has has anythgn to bash the service men and women yet in thsi thread, so i have no clue why you are brining this up. they onyl reason why they are there is because they were ordered to, and by disobeying orders, they have commited treason against their country. and how many of them want to be on the goverment's "**** list?" not many
I said, "Do not take credit away from these heroic servicemen/women who fought for us to try to secure our nation and the world from terroism". The reason I said that is because Snow wolf made a comment about Bush mudering soldiers. That comment, instead of picturing them as heroic men and women, it makes them sound like victims and takes away their credits. Do you think all servicemen and women feel that this war is stupid and they are just going because they were ordered to? I know soldiers who've gone to Iraq and Afghanistan and alot of them are proud to have gone and made a difference.

[Snow Wolf]

Its okay...we can agree to disagree thats why we have multiple political parties. While I strongly disagree with a lot of your political points, I respect your ability to express them in an intelligent manner! Dialouge is neccessary for us as a people to make wise choices....I am extremely left and proud of it... and you sound pretty far to the right.....the truth likely really lies somewhere in the center between our views.

The intelectual dishonesty I refered to was it seemed like you tried to say it Was Clinton`s fault.....remember Desert Storm in 91? That was under Bush senior and not "getting Saddam" helped cost him the election in 92. It isn`t even Bush I`s mess anyway it is about 40 years of our flawed foreign policy that has created many of our current messes. Also one correction The Iranian hostage crisis occurred in 1979 when Carter was President, not Reagan.

To clear things up though, I do not disrespect our troops, I am ex military myself. They are serving with honor and distiction, my issue is with our political leaders. In my opinion, Bush and co is murdering our troops by sending them into battle without body armor or armored Humvees and tragically flawed battle plans for occupying a country. I was against the war, yes, but even in disagreement I want our military guys to have the best equipment possible and I want the bastard politicians who comit them to give them 110% support and they have not done so. I support the troops by actively corosponding with my representative and my two Senators regularly to A) get them the hell out of there ASAP and B) fully fund their needs and C) stop the Bush bastard and the idiot Republicans in the House from gutting VA benefits and closing VA hospitals at a time when they are most needed. Also, if we are so commited to fighting this so called war on terror, every good, patriotic American should reject all tax cuts and insist that that money go directly to our guys and gals in uniform. At a time of war, a tax cut is un-patriotic!!!

Okay, here is my point on Bush and Hitler......go to this website:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm?sa=X

and read some of the biographical history of Hitler and especially the manner in which he manipulated President Hindenburgh and created chaos culminating with the burning of the Riechstagg (I know I blew the spelling) and how he used these events to get the Geramn parliment to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 which gave him dictatorial powers. Compare the Enabling Act with the USA Patriot Act and look at how the Bush administration deliberately misled the world and the American people about Iraq and the terrorist threat. My point is that Bush is using the same tactics and strategies that Hitler used to take over Germany...please understand that a comparrison of tactics is NOT the same thing as saying he IS Hitler. I see Bush as having some very alarming similarities and if we are not vigilant, we could end up under Martial Law...all it will take is another serious "terrorist" attack and the American people will willingly give up their Constitutional rights for "protection"

I do not claim to be 100% right on any of this, I am expressing a politcal fear about what I see going on and feel it is something that should be out there so we can stay vigilant if trends show that we are slipping into a police state.

As for your other questions,

No I was not in Iraq, I got out in 1987.
Of my friends, mentioned, one is Army and one is Marines....they tell me that most of the guys on thr ground hate Bush and Rumsfeld and think this whole thing is crap. They do the best they can out of loyalty to each other not for Bush.

I have 3 friends who work for KBR (division of Halliburton) and they are so friggen angry at the totally wastefullness of Halliburton and how that company is throwing our money down the toilet....they have already "misplaced" over $9 billion. Also, the only thing they are really working on is the 14 PERMANENT military bases in Iraq and the LARGEST US Embassy in the world in Bagdahd. I may be way out in left field...okay we all know that already..... but in any case....I predict that in 20 years we can still have this debate because we will STILL be there. These guys tell me that Halliburton will abandon a $100,000.00 semi truck over a minor breakdown...they are squandering our tax dollars we spent giving them the no bid contracts.

About PNAC.....this is the right wing think tank that has been chomping at the bit to invade Iraq LONG before 9-11 Donald Rumsfeld is a primary member. The Iraq invasion was planned at least as early as 1998 so all of Bush`s lies about Iraq after 9-11 are just that...total 100% BS. He used American`s fear to sell a war that we would not have authorized under any other circumstance. He used our grief and fear to manipulate us into an unjust war...a war he was unprepared to complete.....our troops were top notch at invading and toppling Iraq, we just had no strategy for occupying Iraq and all the generals and advisors said so. Bush in his arrogance rfused to listen to them. Here is an example off of PNAC`s website...it is a letter written to President Clinton in 1998 to invade Iraq...they claimed WMD`s back then and you will see Ricchard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, William Krystol and Donald Rumsfeld among others as co signers.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Like I said, I disagree with you, but respect the thought you put into defending your beliefs and the way you argue your points. You may disagree with me, but know that I put as much effort and thought into my belief system as well. one thing is for sure, at least we both give a sh!t enough to be involved....even from opposite sides of the political fence we do care about our country and our world.

[Snow Wolf]

Yes..a large part of why we went to Vietnam was the fear of spreading communism but we ACTUALLY were there origionaly to support the french..as they were trying to Regain there territorries that japan had taken control of in WWII...in 1950 truman pledged to give the french 15million to aid in there war campaign..and we also sent troops to Korea in that same year...it wasn't untill the french lost a Dien Bien Phu in may of 54' when they decided to pull out which left us there trying to pick up the pieces...would we have still gone to vietnam...probly..because of the fear of communism spreading and russia gaining power...but the U.S. went to Vietnam FIRST to help the French...i do know my history..and each person has there conspiracy theorys about every war including the whole..."we let pearl harbor happen so we would have an excuse to go to war" theory..yes i have heard that one...just like we only went to war with Iraq for Oil and thats why we want to Nuke Iran as well so "power hungry" bush can have all the oil he wants...the fact is that regardless of wheather or not the leaders of N. Korea and Iran aren't "Terrorists" doesn't change the fact that they don't need Nuclear weapons..Period!

Okay, thanks for the information...I knew Vietnam really got started when our "advisors" were getting chilled....I did not know how involved we were with the French...thanks for the info. I am not saying I beleive the whole FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked...I just mentioned that to demonstrate how devided the American people were about getting involved in WWII. I agree with you that we do not want Iran to get nuclear weapons, but my point is that we have no authority to act unilaterally and start doing this pre-emptive war thing. People might think its okay since it is America doing it, but we need to promote cooperation and be a part of a global community. Under Bush America is behaving like a schoolyard bully, picking on the weak kids. Also, under the Nuclear Non proliferation Treaty, Iran and any other country has the 100% LEGAL right to persue peacefull nuclear technology. Their measely 3.5 % enrichment of Uranium using 164 cetrifuges hooked in a cascade is NO threat. This barely makes Irridium...the stuff that makes the old watches glow (not Phospherous). To make Uranium into a fissile material like U-235, they need a minimum of 80% enrichment which would require 16,000 cetrifuges. All international nuclear experts agree that even at a balls to the wall pace, Iran is at least 10 years away from having "the bomb" We do not need to attack Iran right now, we can work on this through diplomacy a little longer before turning cowboy George loose on them. Also, never mind that argument.....even if I was in favor of military action against Iran...why this insane plane to use a tactical nuclear weapon? That is NOT a road the human race needs to go down.....that is reckless and crosses a threshold we will regret. I wish Americans were as passionate about invading the Sudan and stopping the genocide in Darfur as they are about invading Iran!!!!
Anyway, like Customrider13, I enjoy the intelligent debate with you....:)

[RideTheory]

Debat can be fun:) but i can get into it so i don't do it alot, but to each his/her own....your "left" im "right" but i agree that it is all about balance..i don't agree with bush on some of his points but than again i don't think he is doing things simply to bully people..but than again i could be wrong...im to busy studying law, so i dont watch the news alot...and besides even though i don't think iran should have Nukes...i really don't think we will nuke them..i think this story got out and everyone is blowing it up...yes im sure that Iran may be viewed as a Potential threat but im pretty confident that we aren't going to launch any type of war campaign against them anytime soon...and N. Korea isn't to much of a threat to us because S. Korea, and China have them pretty isolated...my focus right now is on the boarder problem...but that is a whole other problem...but yea the whole vietnam thing...we would have gone there regardless of the French or not, the communism scare from them and the Soviets was pretty high so im sure that when the french needed our help early on, congress probly viewed that as an open door to do something about communism. but i enjoyed the debate with you as well...sorry if i might have sounded a little fired up...guess thats why i want to be a lawyer:)

[Snow Wolf]

no prob politics will always do that....Yeah on the border thing...I used to live in Arizona and it is something we have got to deal with. I don`t blame the illegals, as they are just doing what we all would do if we were in their shoes. I think our Government needs to get serious about securing the border and there also needs to be enforcement on these companies who are hiring them. I never really appreciated how bad the problem was till I lived in a border state.

[CustomRider13]

Its okay...we can agree to disagree thats why we have multiple political parties. While I strongly disagree with a lot of your political points, I respect your ability to express them in an intelligent manner! Dialouge is neccessary for us as a people to make wise choices....I am extremely left and proud of it... and you sound pretty far to the right.....the truth likely really lies somewhere in the center between our views.

The intelectual dishonesty I refered to was it seemed like you tried to say it Was Clinton`s fault.....remember Desert Storm in 91? That was under Bush senior and not "getting Saddam" helped cost him the election in 92. It isn`t even Bush I`s mess anyway it is about 40 years of our flawed foreign policy that has created many of our current messes. Also one correction The Iranian hostage crisis occurred in 1979 when Carter was President, not Reagan.

To clear things up though, I do not disrespect our troops, I am ex military myself. They are serving with honor and distiction, my issue is with our political leaders. In my opinion, Bush and co is murdering our troops by sending them into battle without body armor or armored Humvees and tragically flawed battle plans for occupying a country. I was against the war, yes, but even in disagreement I want our military guys to have the best equipment possible and I want the bastard politicians who comit them to give them 110% support and they have not done so. I support the troops by actively corosponding with my representative and my two Senators regularly to A) get them the hell out of there ASAP and B) fully fund their needs and C) stop the Bush bastard and the idiot Republicans in the House from gutting VA benefits and closing VA hospitals at a time when they are most needed. Also, if we are so commited to fighting this so called war on terror, every good, patriotic American should reject all tax cuts and insist that that money go directly to our guys and gals in uniform. At a time of war, a tax cut is un-patriotic!!!

Okay, here is my point on Bush and Hitler......go to this website:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm?sa=X

and read some of the biographical history of Hitler and especially the manner in which he manipulated President Hindenburgh and created chaos culminating with the burning of the Riechstagg (I know I blew the spelling) and how he used these events to get the Geramn parliment to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 which gave him dictatorial powers. Compare the Enabling Act with the USA Patriot Act and look at how the Bush administration deliberately misled the world and the American people about Iraq and the terrorist threat. My point is that Bush is using the same tactics and strategies that Hitler used to take over Germany...please understand that a comparrison of tactics is NOT the same thing as saying he IS Hitler. I see Bush as having some very alarming similarities and if we are not vigilant, we could end up under Martial Law...all it will take is another serious "terrorist" attack and the American people will willingly give up their Constitutional rights for "protection"

I do not claim to be 100% right on any of this, I am expressing a politcal fear about what I see going on and feel it is something that should be out there so we can stay vigilant if trends show that we are slipping into a police state.

As for your other questions,

No I was not in Iraq, I got out in 1987.
Of my friends, mentioned, one is Army and one is Marines....they tell me that most of the guys on thr ground hate Bush and Rumsfeld and think this whole thing is crap. They do the best they can out of loyalty to each other not for Bush.

I have 3 friends who work for KBR (division of Halliburton) and they are so friggen angry at the totally wastefullness of Halliburton and how that company is throwing our money down the toilet....they have already "misplaced" over $9 billion. Also, the only thing they are really working on is the 14 PERMANENT military bases in Iraq and the LARGEST US Embassy in the world in Bagdahd. I may be way out in left field...okay we all know that already..... but in any case....I predict that in 20 years we can still have this debate because we will STILL be there. These guys tell me that Halliburton will abandon a $100,000.00 semi truck over a minor breakdown...they are squandering our tax dollars we spent giving them the no bid contracts.

About PNAC.....this is the right wing think tank that has been chomping at the bit to invade Iraq LONG before 9-11 Donald Rumsfeld is a primary member. The Iraq invasion was planned at least as early as 1998 so all of Bush`s lies about Iraq after 9-11 are just that...total 100% BS. He used American`s fear to sell a war that we would not have authorized under any other circumstance. He used our grief and fear to manipulate us into an unjust war...a war he was unprepared to complete.....our troops were top notch at invading and toppling Iraq, we just had no strategy for occupying Iraq and all the generals and advisors said so. Bush in his arrogance rfused to listen to them. Here is an example off of PNAC`s website...it is a letter written to President Clinton in 1998 to invade Iraq...they claimed WMD`s back then and you will see Ricchard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, William Krystol and Donald Rumsfeld among others as co signers.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Like I said, I disagree with you, but respect the thought you put into defending your beliefs and the way you argue your points. You may disagree with me, but know that I put as much effort and thought into my belief system as well. one thing is for sure, at least we both give a sh!t enough to be involved....even from opposite sides of the political fence we do care about our country and our world.
sorry Wolf, I've been pretty busy with this new job and school.
About the left and right thing, I don't like to consider myself left or right but I do share more views with the left, a tiny bit. Both sides have their goods and bads.
I believe the war in Iraq is a just cause and also, it's for our safety. The thing I don't agree with is the timing and planning.
I don't agree with Bush's tax cut for the rich either. They need to pay the same percentage as everyone else. Why should they get a break when we middle and low class people don't. We're the ones that need a break. Maybe if they didn't get their tax cut, we could afford to put kevlar on our troops. haha.
About Bush and Hitler.......when people hear Hitler, they automatically picture an evil racist dictator. When you make any comparisons regarding that name, their minds relate that picture to whoever you are making comparison with (even if it's just a trait). Also, your words come off (subconsciously or mistakingly) very suggestive in the likeness of the two men.
The UN inspectors have been blocked and evaded by Saddam and I doubt the PNAC were the only people to think an invasion would be neccesary. Yes, we haven't found the WMD, but why did Saddam want to avoid UN inspectors so bad? Nothing to use for proof but it does raise alot of suspicion. I wouldn't doubt he had it and he either sold or gave them away before we went in. Who knows, I guess we'll just have to see.
You know, although we look at things differently, I do respect your passion about our country's issues. It is something everybody should have, but don't.

Daniel

[CustomRider13]

Yes..a large part of why we went to Vietnam was the fear of spreading communism but we ACTUALLY were there origionaly to support the french..as they were trying to Regain there territorries that japan had taken control of in WWII...in 1950 truman pledged to give the french 15million to aid in there war campaign..and we also sent troops to Korea in that same year...it wasn't untill the french lost a Dien Bien Phu in may of 54' when they decided to pull out which left us there trying to pick up the pieces...would we have still gone to vietnam...probly..because of the fear of communism spreading and russia gaining power...but the U.S. went to Vietnam FIRST to help the French...i do know my history..and each person has there conspiracy theorys about every war including the whole..."we let pearl harbor happen so we would have an excuse to go to war" theory..yes i have heard that one...just like we only went to war with Iraq for Oil and thats why we want to Nuke Iran as well so "power hungry" bush can have all the oil he wants...the fact is that regardless of wheather or not the leaders of N. Korea and Iran aren't "Terrorists" doesn't change the fact that they don't need Nuclear weapons..Period!
of course you know your history, you have to for law. haha. Nice post by the way. Which law school are you going to attend?

[RideTheory]

of course you know your history, you have to for law. haha. Nice post by the way. Which law school are you going to attend?
i would love to go to the University of Texas law school...but i think i have a pretty good shot at getting a scholarship at unlv...but im gonna apply to every school i can think of a few that are out of my leage like Harvord...a bunch i know i can get into like UNLV or University of Utah..and ill decide on the ones i get accepted to...it all about the best economical school for me...so its still up in the air...i dont take the LSAT untill Sept 30 so i have a few months to narrow down my choices

[CustomRider13]

i would love to go to the University of Texas law school...but i think i have a pretty good shot at getting a scholarship at unlv...but im gonna apply to every school i can think of a few that are out of my leage like Harvord...a bunch i know i can get into like UNLV or University of Utah..and ill decide on the ones i get accepted to...it all about the best economical school for me...so its still up in the air...i dont take the LSAT untill Sept 30 so i have a few months to narrow down my choices
Texas is tier 1 (top 20, holy cow), Utah is tier 2 and UNLV isn't even tier 2. I wouldn't go to UNLV for law if I were you. Forget the scholarship if you get accepted into a better school. You can always pay off your loans later and plus it's a once in a lifetime oppurtunity to get the best education and experience as possible.
Applying to schools you don't think you will get accepted to might be a waste of money because applications aren't cheap. Unless, you get fee waivers. If you want to get accepted to Harvard, you better have 3.8+ and 168+ :eek: LSAT score. Good luck on the LSAT's and I hope you're good at standardized tests.

[kelly]

You forgot to mention that he'd better also not spell it "Harvord" on the applicaiton letter.

[CustomRider13]

when did you become the spellcheck Kelly? I thought that was a typo.
Ride Theory, make sure you don't do that on application. haha. Orem, Utah........that's where "The Used" is from.

[kelly]

I'm the grammar police, where have you been?
And I would hope that a future lawyer would be careful about his presentation of the english language. ;)

[Snow Wolf]

Everybody here KNOWS Kelly is the spelling police!...... :)

[thedude]

Do you think all servicemen and women feel that this war is stupid and they are just going because they were ordered to? I know soldiers who've gone to Iraq and Afghanistan and alot of them are proud to have gone and made a difference.
i never said all service men/women think the war is stupid. my cousin was there, and was proud of the fact they got rid of the Saddam. his reason for disaproval later on came from when half his platoon was taken away and sent to guard some pipeline that was used for transporting oil. to him that was a smack in the face for all the work that they did. he saw it as a strategy for the oil to be safe, while the other half of his platoon was sent to go fight on the front line. to him saving oil over some others lives is what he got worked up about, and i don't blame him for thinkgin the way he does. nor did i say or hint at any point that i think our service men and women were dumb. if they were stupid, they'de be flippign burgers at McDonald's, not fighting in the middle east.

[Snow Wolf]

sorry Wolf, I've been pretty busy with this new job and school.
About the left and right thing, I don't like to consider myself left or right but I do share more views with the left, a tiny bit. Both sides have their goods and bads.
I believe the war in Iraq is a just cause and also, it's for our safety. The thing I don't agree with is the timing and planning.

My opininon is that this has actually made us less secure. Even though Saddam was a brutal dictator, he kept Iraq under very tight control and was at least secular. There is no evidence of any ties to terrorism coming out of Iraq pre-invasion. Even Bush said that many many times after 9-11 I think the mess we are in has made us and the world less safe. Your point may have been valid had Rumsfeld not botched the occupation up so badly and we had that country as secure as Saddam had it.


I don't agree with Bush's tax cut for the rich either. They need to pay the same percentage as everyone else. Why should they get a break when we middle and low class people don't. We're the ones that need a break. Maybe if they didn't get their tax cut, we could afford to put kevlar on our troops. haha.

Definitely agree!

About Bush and Hitler.......when people hear Hitler, they automatically picture an evil racist dictator. When you make any comparisons regarding that name, their minds relate that picture to whoever you are making comparison with (even if it's just a trait). Also, your words come off (subconsciously or mistakingly) very suggestive in the likeness of the two men.

People need to get over that knee jerk reaction...we need to be able to objectively make the comparrisons when they fit. Yes I do feel he has a lot of the same mental dissorders that afflicted Hitler and I think he is potentially just as dangerous....my opinion.

The UN inspectors have been blocked and evaded by Saddam and I doubt the PNAC were the only people to think an invasion would be neccesary. Yes, we haven't found the WMD, but why did Saddam want to avoid UN inspectors so bad? Nothing to use for proof but it does raise alot of suspicion. I wouldn't doubt he had it and he either sold or gave them away before we went in. Who knows, I guess we'll just have to see.

The UN weapons inspectors were in there off and on. I agree that Saddam had the power to normalize relations with America when Clinton was president. Then he had a rational president who would have worked with him and eased sanctions. His stubborn pride and hatred would not let him do so. I don`t think he was hiding anything, I think his pride and arrogance combined with hatred clouded his judgement. When he finally figured out that America was going to take action, he backed down, let the inspectors go anywhere and disclosed everything he had to the UN. At this point it did`nt matter what he did, Bush had already decided to invade no matter what...the Downing Street Memo shows how he manipulated the intell to fit the policy. Most importantly, the cost was too high on the innocent civillians...we could have done things a lot differently to get rid of Saddam..there was no need to destroy so much of the country and kill so many innocents. It was way over the top.



You know, although we look at things differently, I do respect your passion about our country's issues. It is something everybody should have, but don't.

Daniel I agree about this totally....all Americans need to be engaged in the discussion even in disagreement

[CustomRider13]

I'm the grammar police, where have you been?
And I would hope that a future lawyer would be careful about his presentation of the english language. ;)
*sirens* "get your hands off the keyboard and put them behind your head!! Do you know why I stopped you........from typing? Cause you spelled "Harvard wrong". On this forum, grammar is a crime. Here is your ticket and please be careful next time."

[kelly]

Actually I just brought that one up because I thought it was funny... it's not like I point out all of RideTheory's spelling errors (of which there are quite a few).

[CustomRider13]

i never said all service men/women think the war is stupid. my cousin was there, and was proud of the fact they got rid of the Saddam. his reason for disaproval later on came from when half his platoon was taken away and sent to guard some pipeline that was used for transporting oil. to him that was a smack in the face for all the work that they did. he saw it as a strategy for the oil to be safe, while the other half of his platoon was sent to go fight on the front line. to him saving oil over some others lives is what he got worked up about, and i don't blame him for thinkgin the way he does. nor did i say or hint at any point that i think our service men and women were dumb. if they were stupid, they'de be flippign burgers at McDonald's, not fighting in the middle east.
If I was watching those pipelines and I was thinking about Bush and his administration making money off of oil that I'm risking my life for, I'd be pissed too. But then again. I could also look at it from a point where I believe oil is an important resource that fuels our economy. Can you imagine if we didn't have enough oil? What would happen to our economy? Another Great Depression? I'm just throwing out things. Feel free to correct me.
When did I ever say that you thought service men/women were dumb?? Did I really say that?

[CrzyLikeAFoxx]

Wow, this Forum is Seething!! Ahhh, I love Bush. Yaaa, I support the bastard. I think he's trying his best and can't say he's lying or has personal agenda because I don't know him personally or even socially. I haven't sat down and talked to him either. If anyone is to blame for the Iraq Situation it's Damn Dickey Chaney. If we would've listened to Powell and went in w/ overwhelming force it would be alot smoother. As for Iran, I'll be back in by that time so maybe I'll get another Medal and Combat Jump:). I kid, I kid...Peace talks first. I'ld say more, but I don't know youz guyz that well :).

[kelly]

Hmmm.. the guy who loves Bush got a 43% idiot on the idiot test... coincidence? I think not. ;)

[CrzyLikeAFoxx]

Ohhh, Harsh...keeping tabs huh? *Cough*Terroist*Cough* Let's just say that Name is Synominus with Idiots...nuff said.

[CustomRider13]

I agree about this totally....all Americans need to be engaged in the discussion even in disagreement
I wouldn't doubt Saddam had WMD's. I don't see the reason for blocking and evading UN inspectors unless he had something to hide.
Didn't Saddam fund terrorists?
When you compare , you are suggesting the likeness of the two. When people absorb that, they associate the two. You are comparing the likeness of the two men and not the difference.
When Clinton was in office, he did attack Iraq for not complying. It was called Operation Desert Fox. They had air raids for 3 days bombing areas so that Iraq couldn't produce WMD's. I think there was ways to avoid our long stay in Iraq and spared lives but I don't think they plan it out right and the timing was not the best.

[CustomRider13]

Wow, this Forum is Seething!! Ahhh, I love Bush. Yaaa, I support the bastard. I think he's trying his best and can't say he's lying or has personal agenda because I don't know him personally or even socially. I haven't sat down and talked to him either. If anyone is to blame for the Iraq Situation it's Damn Dickey Chaney. If we would've listened to Powell and went in w/ overwhelming force it would be alot smoother. As for Iran, I'll be back in by that time so maybe I'll get another Medal and Combat Jump:). I kid, I kid...Peace talks first. I'ld say more, but I don't know youz guyz that well :).
yes, we should've went in there with overwhelming force instead of repeating the Vietnam senario.
I don't think Bush is a bad guy either, just not a good president. Maybe he's being manipulated by his administration and party. Who knows.

[CustomRider13]

alright, off to school!! Fun fun. Atleast it's an interesting class. Film. yay.

[RideTheory]

I'm the grammar police, where have you been?
And I would hope that a future lawyer would be careful about his presentation of the english language. ;)
ha ha ha...its cool, i know i cant spell for saht...but its more of a typing thing...i just get so excited i forget to press the right keys....but one of my proffessors was the only prosecutor to succesfully try, and convict 8 Death penalty cases...(all in Utah) in the world...and he cant spell for crap either...so i think i might have a chance...besides thats what law clerks are for:) but yes.i am very aware that i cant spell...and when i type there is NO Correct grammer half the time

[RideTheory]

see i looked back and realized i didnt even spell "shat" rigght:)

[CustomRider13]

ha ha ha...its cool, i know i cant spell for saht...but its more of a typing thing...i just get so excited i forget to press the right keys....but one of my proffessors was the only prosecutor to succesfully try, and convict 8 Death penalty cases...(all in Utah) in the world...and he cant spell for crap either...so i think i might have a chance...besides thats what law clerks are for:) but yes.i am very aware that i cant spell...and when i type there is NO Correct grammer half the time
can't*
professors*
successfully*
grammar*

[RideTheory]

you spell potato...i spell potattoa:)...once again with the funny-ness

[RideTheory]

and besides...did it ever occur to anyone that maybe i just like to add extra letters...or switch others around?...i like to change things up ya know...keep it interesting:):)