Religion is not allowed in school but why is evolution taught?

[CustomRider13]

kind of a old subject but it bugs me. They are so strict with religion at school but they teach evolution. Shouldn't evolution be restricted also??

[kelly]

er... "allowed"

It's a matter of separation of church and state, which is constitutional law. Evolution is not considered a religious belief, because they're teaching it on the basis of scientific research.

[CustomRider13]

oh no, it's the grammar police again. Sorry officer, but I was tired.
I understand the seperation of church and state but we never had problems with religion at school before until people started complaining that their children were getting exposed to religion but what about religious people that don't want their children to be exposed to evolution. They can't even prove evolution so why are they teaching it.

[kelly]

Uh.. there is plenty of scientific evidence for evolution, even most christians believe in some sort of interpretation such as "intelligent design" in which evolution still has taken place.... the deal is that it's a state school, paid for by the state which is separate from the church. If parents want their child to be taught church things instead of the scientific point of view, they should send their children to a church school instead of a state school.

[Snow Wolf]

Besides.....who in the hell are we as puny little humans to tell the "Big Guy" how he had to acomplish any of this....if you believe in that sort of thing, which I do not...proud Athiest! Anyway, anywhere I have seen Evovlution taught, it was taught as a theory. Also, Evolution is real in that things are evolving right now...take viruses...they evolve to become resistant to drugs etc. All Evolution means is that organisms change and adapt to their changing environments....even people...we live much longer now than we used to also, we tend to be taller. I honestly don`t see why the religious people are so twitchy about it. I think "God" was free to do things as "He"saw fit.

[SnoChica]

I am a product of the Catholic School System in Philadelphia. We actually had more of an issue with being taught evolution. That is, we were only allowed to be taught it with the idea that God was the progenator of it. That he planned and started it all.

However, in the public school system, it's easy to leave God out of the equation and simply the theory of evolution. Which, as SnowWolf explained, is easy to see in action even today.

[kelly]

And snow wolf is right that it is taught as a scientific theory, and students are taught the difference between a scientific theory and law, so they are able to question the validity of a theory if it conflicts with their religion, as it has yet to be inconclusively proven (even though there is overwhelming evidence that evolution occurs at least on some level). Things like the big bang theory that are less proven are usually taught with a variety of scientifice theories about how the universe started. Although I'm not religious, I don't think that scientific theories necessarily negate religious ideas... Scientists are studying evidence of what is going on in the universe, and that is presented to us in school. We can take this evidence and reconcile it with our own belief system in whatever way we see fit.

[CustomRider13]

oh please, evolution is a bad theory. Where's the missing link?

[SimonInAustralia]

And intelligent design is a better theory? If our intelligence had to be created by another form of intelligence, i.e. God, didn't that form of intelligence have to be created by another form of intelligence? Who created God?

Why is evolution such a bad theory, just because we do not understand everything about it, and do not have all the answers? Evolution is based on scientific study of the world around us, not on fictional/exaggerated stories from thousands of years ago.

What do you believe in then, if you do not believe in evolution?

Religion is just based on fairy tales, ideas created by humans to explain why we are here, and where we go after we die. Used to manipulate and control scared people.

People thought the world was flat, and the Earth was the centre of the universe up until a few hundred years ago, but somehow they knew everything about the creation and meaning of the universe a couple of thousand years ago when writing the bible...get real! The christian bibles are just based on stories stolen from other religions anyway. The church is against evolution because it shows their beliefs to be false, and thereby erodes their power over people.

[SnoChica]

WTF?!?!?! I actually agree with Simon. I might just pass out.

[SpottyFish]

What Kelly said ;) Because evolution is considered science and religion is legally separated from education....as it should be. I'm a Christian, but since there are so many religious beliefs around the world, I don't believe one religion should be pushed on anyone.....therefore should be left out of the public school system.

[omoore61]

And intelligent design is a better theory? If our intelligence had to be created by another form of intelligence, i.e. God, didn't that form of intelligence have to be created by another form of intelligence? Who created God?

Why is evolution such a bad theory, just because we do not understand everything about it, and do not have all the answers? Evolution is based on scientific study of the world around us, not on fictional/exaggerated stories from thousands of years ago.

What do you believe in then, if you do not believe in evolution?

Religion is just based on fairy tales, ideas created by humans to explain why we are here, and where we go after we die. Used to manipulate and control scared people.

People thought the world was flat, and the Earth was the centre of the universe up until a few hundred years ago, but somehow they knew everything about the creation and meaning of the universe a couple of thousand years ago when writing the bible...get real! The christian bibles are just based on stories stolen from other religions anyway. The church is against evolution because it shows their beliefs to be false, and thereby erodes their power over people.

Couldnt agree more, my chair has a slight lean to the left right now though....hmmm :der: j/k but religion is a touchy subject, I told this girl's mom who was very religious what was in bold before when we were out at dinner and that ruined the night. From now on no religion or politics with anyone who i need to be in their good graces...bad bad idea

[CustomRider13]

There's alot of things that could be asked about evolution. Where did everything come from if evolution is true? Did the galaxy appear from nothing? How could something so complex as a life form be made by chance? How did we become perfectly positioned in our galaxy for living beings to exist? Where is the missing link?
Evolution is a theory and kids at that age shouldn't be taught that. They are at a stage where they are very easily influenced and they tend to absorb what is around them. Especially an authority as the education system. Non-religious people get bothered by religion being exposed to their kids but what will happen to the kids if they do get exposed? What do religious people think if their kids get exposed to evolution and adopt the belief? I'm just pointing out that religious parents see more harm then nonreligious parents do with the current situation. Seems like in our time everyone is trying to be so liberally correct and right in the eyes of society (hollywood), that they mock and criticize the ones that don't conform. Seriously, think about it from the nonreligious parent's perspective and the religious parent's perspective. Keep an open mind and try to consider the situation without the biasness from your own beliefs.

[CustomRider13]

Evolution is a "theory". Don't forget that. It hasn't been proven and people believe in it even when the key evidence is missing. Are we too intelligent for in intelligent creator?

[CustomRider13]

Besides.....who in the hell are we as puny little humans to tell the "Big Guy" how he had to acomplish any of this....if you believe in that sort of thing, which I do not...proud Athiest! Anyway, anywhere I have seen Evovlution taught, it was taught as a theory. Also, Evolution is real in that things are evolving right now...take viruses...they evolve to become resistant to drugs etc. All Evolution means is that organisms change and adapt to their changing environments....even people...we live much longer now than we used to also, we tend to be taller. I honestly don`t see why the religious people are so twitchy about it. I think "God" was free to do things as "He"saw fit.
we live longer because we are evolving? How about diet and medicine? Adaptation does not make us live longer.

[CustomRider13]

What Kelly said ;) Because evolution is considered science and religion is legally separated from education....as it should be. I'm a Christian, but since there are so many religious beliefs around the world, I don't believe one religion should be pushed on anyone.....therefore should be left out of the public school system.
I'm not saying religion should be pushed on anyone but evolution shouldn't be taught in school either. It conflicts with the religious people.

[ADRsk8boarder]

i go to a catholic college prep school and do not beleieve that god created the world in 6 days but i do believe in evolution. As for th point of not teaching evolution at a religious school i know that the pope said that it was ok for catholics to learn and understand the theory of evolution

[SnoChica]

I'm not saying religion should be pushed on anyone but evolution shouldn't be taught in school either. It conflicts with the religious people.
I'll preface this by saying that I do not practice any faith.....

It doesn't conflict with religious people, as I was trying to say in my first post. I went to Catholic school and was taught that a POSSIBILITY could be evolution. And, if we chose to accept evolution as a plausible theory, then as Catholics, we needed only to believe that God intended that evolution to occur.

FU CK, that's better than believing those crazy ass stories about Adam begatting Cane, and Cane begatting whoever and so on and so forth till we get to modern man.

Your questions are valid, how did it all begin? And whether the answer is a higher being, or from nothing, I cannot say. That's WHY religion exists to begin with, to allow our brains to handle questions that are too complex. As humans we like to be able to understand, and some things, as much as we do not like to admit it, are far beyong our comprehension.

The bottom line is this... evolution is a scientific theory... as is the BIG BANG theory. A good deal of what we know about the ancient world is also THEORY. Are you saying that we shouldn't teach any of it?

Also... on another note. History is only as accurate as the writers of that history make it. And a great deal of what we perceive to be true has everything to do with point-of-view. Do you think the history books recording the events of WWII that are taught to German children give the same descriptions as those taught to US children?

Education is not about dumping facts on children and having them regurgitate them. Education is about allowing children to think. To view all sides and make decisions. Therefore, teaching historical theories and scientific theories, they are all ideas. They are simple human ways to make sense of things we do not always understand.

Sorry for the tangent and the rant... but I just had to keep going.

[SimonInAustralia]

There's alot of things that could be asked about evolution. Where did everything come from if evolution is true? Did the galaxy appear from nothing? How could something so complex as a life form be made by chance? How did we become perfectly positioned in our galaxy for living beings to exist? Where is the missing link?Questions that may or may not be answered in the lifespan of the human race. We are only a small blip in the timeline of the universe, and we only have a very limited reach into the universe to understand it, it is not necessarily the case that we will ever know the answers to these questions. That is no reason to make up fiction like religious beliefs to explain it.

[dirtyjerz]

er... "allowed"

It's a matter of separation of church and state, which is constitutional law. Evolution is not considered a religious belief, because they're teaching it on the basis of scientific research.

thats wat my science teacher said

[ADRsk8boarder]

actually i saw cool show on evolution shown at my cathloic school and it was liget. it was from pbs and was like and hour long and explained evolution prefectly and makes sense like the universe was one big ball then it explded and thats why we have galaxies then the gravity start pulling the plants and making their orbits then asteriods started hitting earth witch then had the earth starting to make an ozone layer to prtect itself and after the asteriods stopped **** begn to grow. very interesting

[Snow_bunny18]

I think that evolution taught in schools is a good thing becasue then other wise the kids might not realize that their religion might not be the one for them.(not saying they should change it or anything) Or they go throught heir entire life only knowing what thier parents taught them. Isn't understanding other things essential to living with other beings? Kids deserve a chance to choose themselves, not have somone else choose for them. can't protect their fragile minds always...they will eventually grow up and turn just as pigheaded as you and I.

[CustomRider13]

This subject got a little side tracked. My point is, I think it would be fair to teach religion and evolution in school but I know that religion cannot be taught in school so I would rather not have either.

[phillyboy]

I saw Jesus' face in my cereal this morning. He said this thread's crap.

[thedude]

This subject got a little side tracked. My point is, I think it would be fair to teach religion and evolution in school but I know that religion cannot be taught in school so I would rather not have either.

then the schools codl do liek my school did. since it was a public school, no religion was allowed to be taught, but they held different religious clubs after school. they wodl send the kids to the local church, temple, or whatever, and thye woudl do any religious teachign there. and since my school was high diverse culturally, this was the onyl way that the state and local government would approve of. it worked, no body bitched about it, so all was well. and because evolution was taught as a theory, it let thsoe choose if thye belived in it, or if some greater being created all of life. they at least left us with a choice

edit: forgot to add earlier, btu the school groups were pushed for by the students. they jsut had a petition signed, and had to agree that anybody could join. so a jewish kid could go with the islamic group if he r she wanted

[Snow Wolf]

Okay, in a nut shell like it or not...our founding fathers set up our republic in a way to ensure all people have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose or none at all. They felt so strongly about this that it is the 1st ammendement to the Constitution. Evolution, like it or not, is the leading SCIENTIFIC theory about the origins of life. You are free to totally dissagree with it, but if you want your kids to be able to function in the world, they need to know what the leading scientific theory is and be able to discuss it on a semi educated level. Religion is not taught in school because you cannot establish a state sponsored religion. Which religion would be okay to teach? Christian? Hindu? Jewish? Muslim? Wicken, Druidism, Satanic....where do you draw the line without discriminating against someone`s chosen religion? Separation of church and state not only promotes democracy, it promotes religion as well. If you don`t want to learn about evolution and be left behind the rest of the educated world, go to a private faith based school where they can teach anything they want.

Creationist six thousand year people keep ranting about how Evolution is`nt proven and that the earth is six thousand years old and carbon dating is wrong and dinosaurs did`t exist and on and on and on, yet they defend their Peter-Rabbit explanation with a straight face and call the rest of us brain washed or worse. Evolution is a thory that is continually expanding and changing as scientific discoveries are made. The differrence between thinking, science based people and fundamentalist religious types is we are willing to look at things objectively and when evidence proves a held belief wrong, we adapt and learn. Religous people are so close minded to even consider that evolution is the mechanics of how their chosen fantasy cloud being made it all happen. Honestly, I cannot understand why the age of the earth or how things got here are so damn important to these people. It seems they should spend less energy on this and spend more on living up to what their bibles are telling them how they should behave as christians.

[thedude]

Creationist six thousand year people keep ranting about how Evolution is`nt proven and that the earth is six thousand years old and carbon dating is wrong and dinosaurs did`t exist and on and on and on, yet they defend their Peter-Rabbit explanation with a straight face and call the rest of us brain washed or worse.
what si the Peter-Rabbit explaination? i haven't heard about this one before

[Snow Wolf]

we live longer because we are evolving? How about diet and medicine? Adaptation does not make us live longer.
That in itself is evolution.....all evolution means is change....we as a species evolve through our intelligence and that intelligence makes medicines, makes tools to reduce labor, builds houses to live in instead of caves, etc, etc. We evolve in our environment the same way other species evolve.

[Snow Wolf]

what si the Peter-Rabbit explaination? i haven't heard about this one before

Fairy Tale

[thedude]

lol, same as the fairy tale? or they a little more specific wiht their fairy tale?
how can the deny the existance of dinosaurse though? that's just retarded. we've dug up hundreds of skeletal remains, fossilized eggs, foot prints, etc. i'm a little curouse nwo as to hwo they can even think that

[Snow Wolf]

Ive been told by some real rabid ones that the devil put them there to decieve us....I don`t make this up...also I hd a guy tell me that Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark with him.... I asked him if God was going to let them become extinct anyway, why bother saving them from the flood...I got the usual..."God works in mysterious ways" line.....thats why I call all that crap "Peter Rabbit Theory.

[SimonInAustralia]

I saw Jesus' face in my cereal this morning.Hope you didn't eat it!...You could sell it on ebay.

[missinsnow]

Ive been told by some real rabid ones that the devil put them there to decieve us...
I've got really religious fanatics in my family who subscribe to this belief (extended family... my nuclear family is pretty liberal and not religious). Funny story, they were at dinner with one of my friends who is getting his engineering PhD at MIT and somehow dinosaurs came up in conversation and they said that dinosaur bones were put here by satan... needless to say my MIT friend had a bit of a chuckle

[phillyboy]

Hope you didn't eat it!...You could sell it on ebay.
I ate it. I think it's like communion or something if you eat your cereal Jesus face.

[kelly]

Yeah, I have also heard people say that all of the fossilized remains and scientific evidence for evolution were put their by god in order to test their faith.

Anyway, snow wolf is right... evolution is a scientific theory.. if they have to cut one scientific theory out of school because it conflicts with religious beliefs, they have to cut out them all... a lot of religions don't believe in medicine... and there are some that don't believe in technology... oh wait, better take the computers out of all of the schools so they don't offend the amish...
It just doesn't make sense. The teachers are presenting the leading scientific theory and the evidence for that theory to the students. The students need to take this knowledge and reconcile it with their religious beliefs however they see fit. If parents are extremely concerned about students being taught evolution, they can put their children in a school where it is not taught, just as the amish put their children in a school where technology isn't used.

[kelly]

I ate it. I think it's like communion or something if you eat your cereal Jesus face.
did you photograph it for the tabloids? and then maybe photograph your consumption? ;)

[phillyboy]

Jesus was a prophet, not a profit.

[ADRsk8boarder]

yea science has to be taught in shcool and evoltion is science and makes sense. religion doesnt hav to be taught and havng god create the world in 6 days doesnt make sense

[phillyboy]

6 days was a metaphor.

[SimonInAustralia]

Jesus was a prophet, not a profit.All those tele-envangelists don't seem to agree with you! I can't believe how many of those you have in the US trying to make a buck from God. That is yet another good example of using the crap they call religion to control people.

[xVT. RIDERx]

i don't know if anyone's said it yet, but if man did infact create God as a fictional character, as a means of explaining why and how things happen, it's because we don't, and cannot explain everything, and that we don't want to take fall for our own misfortune, and instead you have this belife that "this higher being controls my life, so that's who i should blame if anything doesn't go my way, because he/she has a plan for me...blah blah" i think that's bull, if we **** up it's on our own accord and we should take fall for it, and only YOU yourself have control over your fate, if anyone had a plan for me, somehow, i don't know, but i'd manage to **** it up somehow or another. some of the crap they put into people's minds in the more mainstream religions that belive in deities is rediculous. call me ignorant, call me agnostic, whatever. everyone's entilted to their own belifes, and personally, i belive evolution is a very plausible theory, even though we don't quite know where life started, some scientists theorize that matter brought to earth's surface from the meteorites that pelted earth when it first formed, grew into simple, single celled organisms in the ocean, that developed into multi-celled organisms like bacteria, plankton, etc., which some of it evolved into larger creatures, which evolved into amphibious creatures that could live on the land and the water, some of these became adapted to the land and evolved and so on. not all of it makes sense, and there's gaps in it, but it's only a theory.

....

i think i went off topic a bit, or restated everything everyone else said....oh well...lol just a note, my girlfriend's wiccan ( a witch for those who don't know). it's pretty awesome actually, it's nothing like what "witches" are all stereotyped to be, it's a polytheistic religion that's more spiritual than anything else. it sounds pretty cool actually.

[thedude]

Ive been told by some real rabid ones that the devil put them there to decieve us....I don`t make this up...also I hd a guy tell me that Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark with him.... I asked him if God was going to let them become extinct anyway, why bother saving them from the flood...I got the usual..."God works in mysterious ways" line.....thats why I call all that crap "Peter Rabbit Theory.

lol, that's some funny ****. that "god works in mysterious ways" line is just a way for them to have a say in things that they can't prove through biblical analysis. just like how peoel say they see the virgin mary's face on the top of a mushroom when they are makign soup, or jesus's face showed up as a paint blemish on the wall of somebody's car. why doesn't god just present all this stuff directly to thge people, put any non believers on the spot, instead of goign arodun and placing images of charactors from the bible in the most pointless places? and they will tell you "god work's in mysteriouse ways."

come to think of it, that line along with "not to be a (bitch/*******/jerk), but..." are probably the two things that drive me nuts. alright, if you're going to be an *******, then don't try to be polite about it. ******** are not polite people. doesn't matter if you appologize before hand, that fact that it is going to be said automatically lables you as a compleat prick. i think somebody created that line so they coudl try to get arodun the "if you don't have anythign nice to say, then don't say anythign at all" rule.

[thedude]

if we **** up it's on our own accord and we should take fall for it, and only YOU yourself have control over your fate, if anyone had a plan for me, somehow, i don't know, but i'd manage to **** it up somehow or another.

exactly! you can't blame somebody else for your own mistakes. if oyu screw up, you take the blame.

[ADRsk8boarder]

6 days was a metaphor.

metaphor? thats not what evangelics say and thats not what the bible says..

[Snow Wolf]

Well, we all have to have something to believe in and i think I have found religion...this is the curch for me....LOL

http://www.venganza.org/index.htm

I love making fun of these cults!

[thedude]

Flying Spaghetti Monster - FSM
Future Snowboard Magazine - FSM
coincidence? jk

it truly is amazign what peopel will belive in

[Snow Wolf]

This short clip says it pretty well...this is NOT the America I know!

http://www.bushflash.com/faith.html

[jeffro1080]

I'm not gonna read all the other posts to but regarding the topic...

evolution is taught in school because it's a widely accepted theorey. school is not church. why the hell do people want religion taught in school? wouldn't that make it only fair to teach evolution in church?? obviously not. some people want christianity taught in school, that's retarded. what about all the other religions?? don't they count??? oh wait they don't because everyone is so sure that their religion is the truth... I mean how couldn't it be true? you were brought up to believe it.

[jeffro1080]

There's alot of things that could be asked about evolution. Where did everything come from if evolution is true? Did the galaxy appear from nothing? How could something so complex as a life form be made by chance? How did we become perfectly positioned in our galaxy for living beings to exist? Where is the missing link?
Evolution is a theory and kids at that age shouldn't be taught that. They are at a stage where they are very easily influenced and they tend to absorb what is around them. Especially an authority as the education system. Non-religious people get bothered by religion being exposed to their kids but what will happen to the kids if they do get exposed? What do religious people think if their kids get exposed to evolution and adopt the belief? I'm just pointing out that religious parents see more harm then nonreligious parents do with the current situation. Seems like in our time everyone is trying to be so liberally correct and right in the eyes of society (hollywood), that they mock and criticize the ones that don't conform. Seriously, think about it from the nonreligious parent's perspective and the religious parent's perspective. Keep an open mind and try to consider the situation without the biasness from your own beliefs.

aren't you arguing that evolution should not be taught in school systems? isen't that, "biasness from your own beliefs". Where else do you expect kids to learn about evolution? they aren’t going to learn it in church.

the thing that always made me wonder was about dinosaurs and stuff... like we all know dinosaurs existed. I've read alot of Genesis... uhh I didn't read anything about dinosaurs. what’s goin on there??

[SnowGeek]

I think religion is like many other activities that some people enjoy, and others don't. I know people who get a lot of joy from their religion, just like I get from snowboarding, or others get from sky-diving, or collecting baseball cards, or running marathons. What scares me, though, is when the religious start pushing their beliefs on the rest of us; because historically, they've gotten pretty nasty about it.

[username? tim?]

yeah christians get a bad name cause christ was christ and the idea is he wasn't inharantly sinful because he had no earthly father and teh gosples of him are really the only thing you can take seriously about christianity and most of acts because most of the stuff after that is paul telling people how they should live and you can't be sure that that's really what god wants and it's written from his mind so he knew what he was thinking
i don't believe the evolution thing in the sence that things evolve and we get new species i believe in natral selection because that is fact all the way and i believe in adaptation but nothing can adapt if it doesn't have the means to adapt so if you think about it adaptation is also natral selection in a way
and carbon 14 dating is probably accurate but there is no way you can be sure past about 1000 years because you can't date anything for sure unless you are absolutly sure came from that time without a shadow of a doubt and you can't prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt unless you have a primary sorce with it and unless the primary sorce is an honest person that is 1000 years old there is still a shadow
so since natral selection and evolutionary-adaptation has proof it should be taught
but the christian bible isn't made up from stories "stolen" it's made up from the jewish religion. it is the jewish religion plus christ as god instead of the jewish religion plus christ as that crazy guy who thought he was the son of god.

and christianity teaches that you are responsible for your own actions
and i think that if the bible was totally made up it would have been disproved by now and it hasn't been totally disproved which means that by some means it was written to be difficult or impossible to disprove and it's still the best way to live you're life... it might not be true but if you lived by it i garantee you would cause less pain to people around you a bunch of people here complain about how much stuff sucks for them or our government is hurting people. but i bet you hurt people by your actions too it's just that your actions are on a much smaller scale so they effect less people
it also teaches that earthly wealth is meaningless which if more people believed would clear up almost all the problems we have it teaches to love your neighbor as yourself which sorta means that you don't get anything untill everyone else gets it too

it says the foolishness of god is wiser than the wisdom of man
is says that christians were glad that they were worthy to be prosecuted in the name of the faith

so word of advice to all you christian(true christian)haters the only way you are ever going to make us feel less is if you torture us nonstop and painfully or you become better christains than us yourselves
and if you persecute christians they are going to feel better about what they are doing and if you convert they are going to feel better about what they are doing

[Snowcat pat]

^ Wow what a ****ing headcase

Carbon14 dating is proven, not the work of satan..

The bibles a joke, youre a joke.

Hail oden, hail satan, lmao

[THeJoNMAN]

christianity should be taught in schools, to give people a view of everything,
not just evolution, at least the two main religions, theres tons more proof in christianity for it. yup a



anyone agree? or can say this better, or disagree?

[La Honda]

Mmm, very interesting thread. I really enjoy reading about people's different viewpoints (especially when they're awesome people like snowboarders ;))



I just want to comment on some of things mentioned, including the original subject of the thread. Do I believe that religious viewpoints, such as Intelligent Design, should be taught in public schools? While it's a nice thought, I do not believe it's at all fair or lawful. If I was living in a country where a large percentage of it's citizens were buddist and I was not, I would not want that doctrine to be taught to me in a school funded by the government. I can understand where you are coming from, Custom Rider, since Evolution is not expressly "proven". It is, however, as many have already noted, the leading theory/opinion in the mainstream science field. That doesn't make it correct, but it is reason enough to present to students.



As far as the dating methods used by today's scientists being "absolutely flawless" or "the work of the devil" I can't say that I agree with either. Have you ever heard what happened after Mount Saint Helens errupted? Scientists dated the recent sediment (is that the right word?) and formation of things as millions of years old, even though they had witnessed with their own eyes that it was nearly formed. I can get more specifics if anyone would like.



Haha, you guys hit on something that really gets me going :happy: the whole "freedom of will" thing. I've seen so many Christians (and nonChristians) who believe that "everything happens for a reason" or something to that effect. Yes, it's called physics, or the laws of chance. Back when humans were created (even if you believe they evolved from tadpoles you can't dispute what I'm about to say next) they were given something very important. Freedom of choice! If God were to pick and choose everything, say who was to be saved - then why wouldn't He save everyone? I think that events can be caused because of God. Say a Christian following what God desires, etc. Does that mean I think God doesn't have control or knowledge? I think He has control, I just don't think He utilizes it quite as so many people believe. Also, I don't believe He 'causes' bad things to happen. That's where sin comes in, and He simply allows it. If you want to know more about all my crazy ideas, feel free to PM =) I'm not so crazy about rambling on here ;)



Dinosars? Wow, I don't think I've met anyone who don't believe they existed. When did they become extinct? Before the flood? After the flood? No idea. I'm not sure that it matters too very much. I lean more towards them being on the ark. Why would they be on the Ark if they were to be extinct? Well, what about the Dodo bird and Noah? They were both going to die out. To me, just because someone is going to die doesn't mean you shouldn't care for them. :: shrugs :: maybe that's just me though.



Anyways I've completey forgotten what other things have been said here, and my head is pounding. I'm off to take some asprin. Sorry if I've offended or put out anyone by accident. I'm not the preachy type (who likes to get hit over the head with a Bible?) so sometimes I find it hard to come out of my little comfort zone and post potential voletile material.



ps. A lot of horrible things have been done in the name of religion on all sides, not just by Christianity. I thinks all really sad and terrible :( I just can't believe what some people are capable of. I'm a lover not a fighter :p

[Snowcat pat]

christianity should be taught in schools, to give people a view of everything,
not just evolution, at least the two main religions, theres tons more proof in christianity for it. yup a



anyone agree? or can say this better, or disagree?


No, religeon should be kept 1000 yards or more from schools. Especially christianity with all the pedophile priests.

There is absolutely no proof for christianity


This is the problem with the world, mind****ed people who are so full of retarded beliefs. All religeon is more or less a control system. Im not even gonna argue it though

[snow2wake]

ok for snowcat pat priests have nothing to do with christianity thats catholics that have priests. and to the christianity has no proof theres people who set out to disprove it and became christians. theres no proof for evolution its just a theory some dude came up with. i mean it does happen things change over time which is micro evolution the whole fish to bird and all that crap is a bunch of bs. i think religion should be taught as a theory and let students choose wat they want to believe.

[ilikesnow]

i didn't really read most of this so i apologize if i say sumthing that someone else said. And this is gonna be pretty ramblish:

but on the first page someone said that we had to separate church and state because parents didn't want there children being exposed to other religions. Well do they plan on their kids being sheltered forever? Why shelter your kid until you have no control over him/her. It's best to teach all religions in school, so kids can learn about each one, and if they chose one that their parents don't agree with, they have more power/control to tell the kid no, and show them what they feel is the right way. Also, they do teach evolution as a theorie, not fact, and the teacher has to go over what a theory means (basically teh evidence doesn't make it impossible, but ther isn't enuff to call it deffinite) and the teacher says sumthing like, "I know you all may have your religious beliefs that differ from this, and this is Just a theory, and is the way that most scientists agree with, therefore we gots ta teach ya it." And also, evolution has TONS of holes in it to. Some of it doesn't make all that much sense if one uses common sense, but w.e. I'm a proud Christian by the way.

Also slighty off topic, but still very related. In my global studies class that i took last year, we learn about the middle east and india/tibet/china. When we study these areas, we learn about the religions that developed from these areas, We were forced to learn all of the details, and such of every religion, (even some that i had never heard of, and i forget what it was called now) except christianity, The teacher was like "the Jews and the Muslims ffight of this area all of the time, oh yea and the christians consider it sacred too," And we had to know all of the customs of judism, islam, buddhism, hindu, seppism, ect. It made me mad,
anyways... i forget where i was going with this, im done.

[ADRsk8boarder]

[quote=Snowcat pat;138705
Carbon14 dating is proven, not the work of satan..
[/quote]

actually incorrect, they use carbon13 for dating not 14

[username? tim?]

this is long but read it all and it's fun

actually incorrect, they use carbon13 for dating not 14

(from wikipedia)
Radiocarbon dating is a radiometric dating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating) method that uses the naturally occurring isotope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope) carbon-14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14) to determine the age of carbonaceous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous) materials up to ca 60,000 years (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/arizona/rdc/2001/00000043/00000002/art00008). Within archaeology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology) it is considered an absolute dating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_dating) technique.

Absolute dating is the process of determining a specific archaeological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology) date. Such dating is opposed to relative dating based on stratigraphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratigraphy), which is the realization that deposits closer to the surface of the ground are generally younger than more deeply buried deposits. Some archaeologists prefer the terms chronometric or calendar dating, as use of the word "absolute" implies a certainty and precision that is rarely possible in archaeology

However, because the half–life of carbon–14 is short, this dating technique is less dependable for specimens older than 40,000 years than it is for more recent remains

in this light someone explain to me how carbon dating is true without a shadow of a doubt....

as for dinosaurs since the were 65 million years old and radiocarbon dating is only good for 40,000 years that's (65,000,000 devided by 40,000) equals 1,625 cycles of carbon dating which won't be acurate at all so they'd use potasium argon dating
The half–life of potassium–40 is far longer than that of carbon–14—1.3 billion years. With this method, the older the specimen, the more reliable the dating. Furthermore, whereas carbon–14 dating can be done only on organic remains, K/A dating can be used only for inorganic substances: rocks and minerals
as la honda said about mt. sain helens
Scientists dated the recent sediment (is that the right word?) and formation of things as millions of years old, even though they had witnessed with their own eyes that it was nearly formed.
dinosaurs dated by the potassium argon could be buried in dirt and rock that is millions of years older than them

and for the person that was asking if god created us who created him?
well if we were created from matter where did that matter come from?

personally i think that the most plausible idea is that we are a giant simulation in some ones computer or just a thought someone is having (both are under the intelligent design theory) because it makes the most sence if you think about it
1. we can only go back as far as creation and since in our eyes there is always a "what about before creation?"
2.the matter can come from nothing in a computer or someones imagination i mean if i think of a table there is a table in my mind

but then you come up with lots of imperfections
like how can thoughts think?
and if the world was a thought there would be perfection in this world... perfection is only possible in thought

and if we were thoughts we wouldn't need smaller build up to exist so atoms support the we are in a computer idea (think of atoms like pixles)
you can never possibly touch something unless you become the other object yourself

think of it this way: if i reach out to touch something i can always cut the distance from my hand to the object in half infinately
touching would require that the distance between my hand and the object to be 0 and if i continually cut the distance in half i can never reach 0 i can only feel the effects of the other object

again you can never have a surface that is perfectly smooth if you could shrink down on your desk theoretically you could get to the point where a tiny crack is proportionatly a mile wide and if there is a crack there that could become a mile long too but then you get down to molocules and atoms which since they exist are able to be measured which means that they could themselves become infanatly large
you can never measure exact times either

but we can come up with ideas and computers can't i mean you can't turn on your computer and have it start doing stuff on it's own

so that means we can't be a thought or a computer. so we just exist which would prove evolution to be true (except the part about us still having no idea where we come from) and that means we are just nature so there is no right or wrong exept in our own mind and then the judicial system gets all messed up because what someone believes to be true is automatically dubbed wrong by who ever has more power which is just messed up
so maybe then we should figure out an idea that would cause the least amount of pain for the largest amount of people and write that down in a book and have myths about it to keep people happy even though it's against their freedom of choice nature

so just think about that and then figure out how in the heck we exist at all
and then explain to me exactly why religion shouldn't be taught in school and evolution should be

[asd]

Their are two kinds of evolution - Microevolution, and Macroevolution.

Macroevolution is what most people think of "evolution" where nothing, or a big explosion, created a single celled organism, which over eons of time, turns into thinking, talking, problem solving humans we have today.

The second kind, which is what almost all of the evidence for evolution points to, is accepted as a theory by many creationists.

Microevolution is saying that a Virus, when a vaccine is created against it, can slightly change so that it can get past this virus, but no matter how many changes it goes through will never turn into a bird.

The evolution that we see happening today is microevolution.

Just to clear that up.

Oh, and seperation from church and state was only created so that their would not be more Salem Witch Trials, or muslims being sent to jail/killed/harrassed just because they are muslim. In early schools, the New England Primer had to be taught in all the schools in some states. And it is strongly based on the Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Primer

Just like the main book used to found the government of the United States of America was the Bible. (but you would never hear that in a public school today)

Not much seperation there. 8)

[username? tim?]

so eventually we ar gonna have 3 foot tall cold viruses and still no way to stop them

[musicandsnowboarding]

for the record, im religious, believe in god, the bible, all that...but dont call myself "christian," not beause i'm ashamed of it, which i'm not, but because i believe having religious freedom in america makes certain *people* [like churches] think that beacuse we have religious freedom everyone has to have a religion. "christians" force the religion on non-christians. thats what i hate. christianity is about the love of god, not the wrath of god.

anyway, the people talking about the seperation of church and state are saying exactly what i'm thinking. heck, i believe some forms of evolution, i believe we DID evolve....but not so drastically. like i said, i believe in god, and i believe that man was made in god's image. maybe god looks more like a monkey. that doesnt mean that the whole religion is a lie even IF evolution is true. but its stupid to argue that because theres always the missing link of where and how everything started. like if you think along big bang- lines, where and why did it happen in the first place?

personally i believe that no one created god, he has always been, and he is outside of time....if you believe in an endless universe, imagine being outside of it. thats where god is, IMO, so no one needed to create him. theres no timeline for god--
if you don't get what im saying, take a piece of paper and draw a circle on it. imagine that circle as containing the world, the galaxy, the whole universe, time, space, everything. no outside of this circle, there is no timeline. there is only god.

my only question is are there different universes? [draw more circles.] and outside of it all is god?

i got off subject, sorry.

[musicandsnowboarding]

yeah christians get a bad name cause christ was christ and the idea is he wasn't inharantly sinful because he had no earthly father and teh gosples of him are really the only thing you can take seriously about christianity and most of acts because most of the stuff after that is paul telling people how they should live and you can't be sure that that's really what god wants and it's written from his mind so he knew what he was thinking
i don't believe the evolution thing in the sence that things evolve and we get new species i believe in natral selection because that is fact all the way and i believe in adaptation but nothing can adapt if it doesn't have the means to adapt so if you think about it adaptation is also natral selection in a way
and carbon 14 dating is probably accurate but there is no way you can be sure past about 1000 years because you can't date anything for sure unless you are absolutly sure came from that time without a shadow of a doubt and you can't prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt unless you have a primary sorce with it and unless the primary sorce is an honest person that is 1000 years old there is still a shadow
so since natral selection and evolutionary-adaptation has proof it should be taught
but the christian bible isn't made up from stories "stolen" it's made up from the jewish religion. it is the jewish religion plus christ as god instead of the jewish religion plus christ as that crazy guy who thought he was the son of god.

and christianity teaches that you are responsible for your own actions
and i think that if the bible was totally made up it would have been disproved by now and it hasn't been totally disproved which means that by some means it was written to be difficult or impossible to disprove and it's still the best way to live you're life... it might not be true but if you lived by it i garantee you would cause less pain to people around you a bunch of people here complain about how much stuff sucks for them or our government is hurting people. but i bet you hurt people by your actions too it's just that your actions are on a much smaller scale so they effect less people
it also teaches that earthly wealth is meaningless which if more people believed would clear up almost all the problems we have it teaches to love your neighbor as yourself which sorta means that you don't get anything untill everyone else gets it too

it says the foolishness of god is wiser than the wisdom of man
is says that christians were glad that they were worthy to be prosecuted in the name of the faith

so word of advice to all you christian(true christian)haters the only way you are ever going to make us feel less is if you torture us nonstop and painfully or you become better christains than us yourselves
and if you persecute christians they are going to feel better about what they are doing and if you convert they are going to feel better about what they are doing

yeah. i agree. i think that most americans who dont believe in god only dont because of the idea of being "christian." if you are around a bunch of true christians, that is, ones that dont go around with picket signs saying you're going to hell....but ones that love jesus....you can tell how much they [we] love life and christ and see life as a blessing. christians tend to be more positive and forgiving people because they Know the grace of god and they [again, we] are so happy with life that you can see the joy of christ through their actions and their attitudes. if this doesnt sound like the christians you know, then they probably arent christians.

we get such a bad name. its sad. people only hate us because they hate the idea of being told what to do. i do too. [i was rasied lutheran, and i disagreed with most of the specifics of it, so i left the church and became nondenominational.] its so much more accepting....you feel the atmosphere change when you walk into a room full of christ-lovers.

at this bible camp i worked at, we had a few days of family camp among the weeks of elementary-middle schoolers. this one family spent their time there, they werent christian, and from what they'd seen in christianity they didnt want anything to do with it. after the camp was over, they told us that they didn't know about the whole christ thing, but if this is what christians are really like, then they want to know more about this side of it.

so even if you dont believe in god, dont hate on the bible. its got really good points, like turning the other cheek-forgiveness, humility, all these characteristics that you dont expect from true christians. and yet thats what theyre like. you dont have to be a monotheist....striving to be christ-like, self-less, etc. [even if you dont agree with the whole christ thing] really builds character.

[ADRsk8boarder]

bible= completely falsed, they were actually events that are changed dramitcally to be changed into teaching stories, out down stories, and many other ones. my theology teacher at my catholic high school teaches us that the story of sodom and gomora might be based on events but when fire rains down on the city it was likely a earthquake being that the area that is pinpointed to be sodom lies directly on fault that is active... also there is no proof that god exists because the bible doesnt count because it was a book writin by a special interest group

[username? tim?]

idk about completely falsed i mean christ was in history. the reason israles and palestinians hate eachother is in the bible. so whether you can take it word for word or not is the question. but the point is the ideas in the bible are good ideas (again exclude the homosexual thing cause that's gonna cause pointless fights)
maybe it's just more comforting for there to be a god i mean if we are here by mere chance then pretty much a cosmic coin toss if it's heads we exist if it's tales we don't... if that's the case then life is totally pointless and you only live to make more humans because that's all nature does

[ADRsk8boarder]

i said there is no proof GOD exists, but there is proof that a man known as jesus existed because of jewish historian josephus jewish writer philo and roman historian pliny the younger, but once again new testament does not count as fact

[username? tim?]

you said the bible was completely falsed... i thought when you said completely you meant everything in it
silly me

[Jenyus425]

er... "allowed"

It's a matter of separation of church and state, which is constitutional law. Evolution is not considered a religious belief, because they're teaching it on the basis of scientific research.
The "seperation of church and state" is most definately NOT a part of constitutional law. the phrase came from a letter from Thomas Jefferson in a perosonal letter to a friend. The actual constitutional law is that there should be no STATE SPONSORED RELIGION. This means that the state cannot dictate the policies of the church. This was NEVER meant to mean that the church is religious but the state is secular. All but 2(Franklin and Jefferson) were devout Christians. The word "creator" (obviously meaning God) is in the Declaration of Independence. Evolution was never taught in schools until the 1950's or 60's. So the public schools taught a creationist viewpoint for almost the first 200 years of the country.

[username? tim?]

yeah what she said^^^ lol

[ColoradoNeverSummer420]

Well put Simon, well put!

[Snowcat pat]

Educations come a long way since the 1800's your 200 years statement is irrelevant.

With the advances in modern genetics, evolution has been proven. Over millenia it occurs naturally. Over millions of years entirely new species can form. This has been proven.

God did not wake up, go to the bathroom in the morning, say let there be light, grab the newspaper and **** out or existance.

It seems the focus is some sort of afterlife. Well you go on thinking what you want, be good people, do what you want just in case but ill enjoy my time here & raise hell.


The church has been the inhibitor of science for years. If they made an optional intelligent design class, id give them genesis to read daily, and crayons, to draw pictures about what they learned for the day.
No funding, whatsoever.

The schools here are in a ****ing educational crisis, and people are worried about intelligent design, lmao.

If you want your children to be taught this way send them to a private school till they are of some age then let them make their own choice.

Religeon is a plague on this planet.

[username? tim?]

S***! that means there's gonna be a three foot cold virus with the ability to hunt!!!! and we still can't kill it!


it seems to me that pat has a serious problem with religion... i wonder if religion ever tried to put anything in his butt....

[asd]

With the advances in modern genetics, evolution has been proven. Over millenia it occurs naturally. Over millions of years entirely new species can form. This has been proven.

lmao, show me?

[ADRsk8boarder]

yea i think evolution is true, but not yet completely proven therefor it is a THEORY and not a LAW

[Snowcat pat]

lmao, show me?

I shouldnt have too, its high school biology :wink:

Do a search on darwinism, theory of evolution..
Use galapagos finches as a specific example.

Furthermore, look at humans.
Whole lot of diversity stemmed from two people, was it magic... or evolution.. bingo .

Show proof of god, the only thing you can come up with is it has to be true, or some bull**** about how no proof is needed.

When you structure your life around something, proof is nice..

[NCC-1701]

100% agreement Pat! I for one, rate all religion right up there with Peter Rabbitt and JRR Tolkien makes more sense than the Bible!

With regard to the seperation of church and state issue....The First Ammendment to the Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....."
While this protects the rights of all Americans to practice ANY religion of thier choosing, it also prohibits the federal government from promoting one religion above another. Generally, the states adopt the same language into their own state constitutions as well. Therefore, in a public school that is funded by federal, state, county and municipal tax dollars, Creationism or Intelligent Design violates the First Amendment because it promotes one religious belief (Judeo-Christian) ahead of others. To be fair to all religions out there, a school would have to give equal time to all and that would simply not be practical. Therefore, what is taught are theories based on the scientific method that is universally accepted accross the planet. It is assumed that religious beleifs will be addressed in church. Furthermore, if someone is that threatened with science, they can always brainwash their children by sending them to private schools. Simply learning what the Theory of Evolution states, is not the same as being forced to believe it. It would be like learning what Islam is about; you can learn about another faith without having to convert to it so I don`t see why Creationist Christians get so twitchy about this issue.

[Corkscrewed]

just curious...why does everyone always sh!t on people of faith? if you think it's a bunch of make believe, so be it...but noone talks sh!t to people that believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. its good to see people stand for something and have faith in something that's only trying to better themselves and the people around them. whats wrong with that?

[Snowcat pat]

just curious...why does everyone always sh!t on people of faith? if you think it's a bunch of make believe, so be it...but noone talks sh!t to people that believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. its good to see people stand for something and have faith in something that's only trying to better themselves and the people around them. whats wrong with that?


Well you have to understand that if a fully grown man believed adamantly in santa or the tooth fairy, id make fun of him too.

The worst people in the history of the world have been religeous.

Be a good person if you want but thats not the way to do it..

[Corkscrewed]

Well you have to understand that if a fully grown man believed adamantly in santa or the tooth fairy, id make fun of him too.
The worst people in the history of the world have been religeous.
Be a good person if you want but thats not the way to do it..

i won't lie...if i knew a grown man that believed in that sh!t i'd joke the sh!t out of them too. i also agree that some of (most of..) the worst attrocities in history have been commited "in the name of God". problem is all of these people actually commited these acts for selfish reasons such as monetary gain, expansion of empires, conquering of a foreign people, or to keep a populace under control (with the fear of burning in hell if they dont follow the rules of religion), not because they were following God's law. it seems (and i could be wrong) that relgion is just used to rally the troops (jihaad anyone?) when used by governments, large groups (Bible belt Jesus freaks), and cults. in my experience, most genuine believers (of any religion) are truely nice caring people.

[Snowcat pat]

Religeous or not, I know alot of caring and alot of bitter people.
Id just prefer for people who want to committ atrocities or stir things up to just admit that they wanted to hahah.

Religeous folks are just as or more unfaithful than non religeous people.

I just get irritiated by alot of religeous people in general, I wont hold myself to a stupd set of standards and I dont just say oh well & repent when I mess up. There most likely isnt a happy ending, oh well.
That faith most religeous people have is more a less a drug, some kind of mental masturbation to the fact that things suck hahah. **** doesnt go your way you have to make it.

The point is religeon can be happy its got the church , leave the schools to academics like science.


And for ****s sake, please keep the priests from the boys.

[NCC-1701]

just curious...why does everyone always sh!t on people of faith? if you think it's a bunch of make believe, so be it...but noone talks sh!t to people that believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. its good to see people stand for something and have faith in something that's only trying to better themselves and the people around them. whats wrong with that?

I have no problem with people who have religious faith. I have served in our military to uphold their Constitutional rights and freedoms to do so. My issue is that a certain segment (read evangelicals) are not happy to simply share this great nation with the rest of us. Like the Taliban, they are practicing their own brand of Jihad and are attempting to twist our laws and government to force their beliefs upon all Americans. Give them an inch they will take a mile. Give in to these radical fundamental Christian types and before long there will be laws requiring you convert. That is the objection to merging religion into school and government.

Additionally, it pisses me off to see such utter hypocracy coming from so many "Christians" just look at the current situation in the Republican party with Rep Mark Foley sexually abusing young boys serving as Congressional Pages and the Republican leadership trying to cover everything up. These people claim to be the moral majority? I cannot understand why religious people still side with these cretins.

[Corkscrewed]

^ i completely agree, its always the nutjobs f**king up everything anyways...religeous or not.

[Andres]

You guys do know that no where in the constitution does it grant us the right of seperation of church and state, right?

maybe people should read things before they make assumptions.

this is taken straight from the Bill Of Rights transcript on the National Archives page:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

this was written by W.A.S.P.s... to prevent "The Church Of The United States"

Think about this....

[CustomRider13]

No, religeon should be kept 1000 yards or more from schools. Especially christianity with all the pedophile priests.

There is absolutely no proof for christianity


This is the problem with the world, mind****ed people who are so full of retarded beliefs. All religeon is more or less a control system. Im not even gonna argue it though
are you in a position to call anybody "a joke"? lol.

[CustomRider13]

I'd like to reply to so many posts but that would take forever. I just want to mention a couple things:
Religion (besides hinduism) is not a control system, they are beliefs.
Nobody is trying to force you into religion. Religious people try to spread the word in consideration to you.
Republican leadership trying to cover for Mark Foley? Do you know if that's true? I'm sure these "republican leaders" have kids also, so why would they cover for a pedaphile? Maybe because the christian religion told them to..........right (sarcasm)........I don't recall molestation being part of christian practices. You know, instead of blaming "christians", why don't you blame those men because religion has nothing to do with what happened.

[NCC-1701]

You guys do know that no where in the constitution does it grant us the right of seperation of church and state, right?

maybe people should read things before they make assumptions.


Uh....I think I covered that already in detail.........

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

What part of this dont you get????

[NCC-1701]

Religion (besides hinduism) is not a control system, they are beliefs.
Nobody is trying to force you into religion. Religious people try to spread the word in consideration to you..

Bullsh!t....since it`s inception, all religion has been used in every civilization to control the populace, a breif study of theology and sociology clearly demonstrates this.
rabid evangelicals have been trying to force their beliefs upon the population for years. All you have do is look at the issues; abstenance only programs for sex education, abolishment of contraceptive from some of the Catholics, Christian prayer in school as mandatory with intollerance of other faiths. Legislation based on biblical principle rather than democratic principles, overturning of Rowe V Wade, gay marriage, ten commandments posted in federal and state courthouses. Everything they do rams christianity down the throats of everyone else and they are intollerant of any other belief systems. I see these people the same as I do the Taliban. They are a danger to our democracy.


Republican leadership trying to cover for Mark Foley? Do you know if that's true? I'm sure these "republican leaders" have kids also, so why would they cover for a pedaphile? Maybe because the christian religion told them to..........right (sarcasm)........I don't recall molestation being part of christian practices. You know, instead of blaming "christians", why don't you blame those men because religion has nothing to do with what happened.

It`s pretty obvious to anyone paying attention...if you watch Cspan and see the actuall testimony that is occurring on Capitol hill right now it clearly shows the Republican Leadership has been more interested in covering this mess up than actually dealing with the problem. No one was blaming christians for this....the point which you obviously missed was the hypocracy shown by people within a party who act like they are better than everyone else because they wear their religion on their sleeves, but dont even try to live by the standards they claim to be about. On top of that they point their filthy little fingers at everybody else and call them immoral. My point was that I truly do not understand why real christians don`t distance themselves from these people. If you want to see what a true christian is, just look at those Amish people and how they are behaving in the face of the horrific events with the school shooting. If all christiand behaved like them, I would`nt have anything to bitch about!

[Oi For Anarchy]

HOW ARE YOU CALLING EVOLUTION A RELIGON. thats the dumbest thing ever. and dont say scientology is a religon. its not. i think the truth should be taught in the school systems for a change. its the stupid people like you that corrupt the minds of the youth of america in hopes they will onces be a fascit corperate religous ****.

[Andres]

Uh....I think I covered that already in detail.........

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

What part of this dont you get????


i figured that some one must have already posted this but i didnt read all 9 pages... sorry for being redundant this was in no way intended to be a cut to you but everybody quotes the "seperation of church and state" when there isnt any

[Corkscrewed]

...since it`s inception, all religion has been used in every civilization to control the populace, a breif study of theology and sociology clearly demonstrates this.
rabid evangelicals have been trying to force their beliefs upon the population for years...they wear their religion on their sleeves, but dont even try to live by the standards they claim to be about. On top of that they point their filthy little fingers at everybody else and call them immoral. My point was that I truly do not understand why real christians don`t distance themselves from these people. If you want to see what a true christian is, just look at those Amish people and how they are behaving in the face of the horrific events with the school shooting. If all christiand behaved like them, I would`nt have anything to bitch about!

i think thats where everyone gets it wrong. religion, Christianity included was a set a rules, that if followed, were meant to improve the quality of life for those believers, and hopefully those that witnessed people living this way of life.
just like anything else, when governments get ahold of religion, they twist it to somehow work in their favor. these are opportunists, not Christians.
the crazed evangelical preachers are just as bad as the government. these people are usually trying to advance their own political agendas, and think throwing "religion" in your face is the way to do it. real men/women of god would never behave in such a manner.
i think its difficult for real Christians to separate themselves from the crazy ones 'cuz everyone lumps all christians into the same group. the only reason the Amish people are standing out, is because they've removed themselves from the modern world. this makes people take an interest, and then their behavior (as good Christians) may be noted...but that's usually secondary. your next door neighbor may be just as good of a Christian, but because he doesn't live in a hand-made house with no electicity, wear hand-made clothes, or grow his own food, he doesn't stand out, thereby not attracting attention to his "true" Christian ways.
there are inherently good things about all religions, but like everything else, when placed in the hands of the wrong people, sh!t gets outta control. you have to look at each individual person and not lump them into the group as a whole that they may be associated with.
are all Democrats bleeding heart liberals? are all Republicans right-wing money loving imperialists? are Mexicans illegal? you have some people in each of those groups that fit the mold, but not everyone.

[username? tim?]

just a thought but from now on i think when we argue we should use "christains" for the ones who use religion to gain leverage (evangelicals w/e)and christains (without quotes) to explain the ones who actually care just so those who don't know what they believe don't become confused...
and yes both sides of this argument are getting confused and pissed off and arguing two different points (even though it appears to be the same one) because this isn't being specified
and i am slightly offended at being grouped into the same group as some of the other people that have "the same" religion

and what custumrider13 said about religious people sharing the in consideration of you was pretty much true. it's just a lot of them preach with no finesse (look that word up and really understand why i used it) mainly because they are telling people how to live and using words to do it,and leave no room for discussion (mainly because they said what they studied and couldn't argue any other point) and also have no idea what they are talking about or how to say it and they piss more people off than they actually get to change their mind
and extremists care more about not messing up than they do about helping other people not mess up either so in a sence extremists are selfish christians (using christian cause that's the main subject) which is really just a huge oxymoron
the whole hypocracy thing isn't really a good argument unless you know what the people feel about what they are doing. christains are people too. people f*** up. we aren't claiming to be christ just that we want to be like him. so if someone does something out of total impulse and then feels guilty later and try's to stop it in what ever way he can should he still be considered a hypocrit?
i agree though it is DISGUSTINGLY hypocritical to say that you are a christian and then continue living like you have just because "you are saved" and the christains that don't try to change in whatever way they can are seen as weak even in the religion but if they came out with it we (christians without quotes) wouldn't really care we'd try to help them reach what we accept as right.
i believe what i believe because i see it as the only way we can all live together peacefully and how i try to live would not be possible without religion because if i have no greater reason to try to live like the bible lays out i would have no reason to even argue these points cause it'll probably make me unpopular which is bad according to nature

although really you guys are mad at the christians (all of them) because they are the biggest religious influence(although most don't practice the things they preach) in THIS country... if we lived in a muslim country you'd probably be mad at the islamic people the difference is they'll kill you (the hardcore ones anyway) so you wouldn't really be pissed off for long
and since you don't have religion (well actually some of you do have athehism or agnostisism as a religion) you would have no reason really to say you won't accept it... i mean if you say you believe it you live... but those of you that have atheism as a religion would still deny it and become a martyr for atheism
i refer to atheism as a religion in the sence that you would still be dying for your religious beliefs (those that argue that atheism isn't a religion i know but it makes the point clearer)

[NCC-1701]

I agree totally with what you are saying here; my ONLY problem is with the extremists. I have no problems with the millions of christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buhdists, native American shamans, etc who have a live and let live phillosophy. I don`t mind someone sharing their beliefs and "offering" their beliefs with me. My only objection is when the extremists try to use the laws of our nation to force their beleifs upon me and other Americans.

[CustomRider13]

Bullsh!t....since it`s inception, all religion has been used in every civilization to control the populace, a breif study of theology and sociology clearly demonstrates this.
rabid evangelicals have been trying to force their beliefs upon the population for years. All you have do is look at the issues; abstenance only programs for sex education, abolishment of contraceptive from some of the Catholics, Christian prayer in school as mandatory with intollerance of other faiths. Legislation based on biblical principle rather than democratic principles, overturning of Rowe V Wade, gay marriage, ten commandments posted in federal and state courthouses. Everything they do rams christianity down the throats of everyone else and they are intollerant of any other belief systems. I see these people the same as I do the Taliban. They are a danger to our democracy.
besides hinduism (as of what I know) religions did not start as a way of controlling others, they are beliefs. Don't label religion by the actions of men who can't control their human urges because that is not what is taught.
Christians are a danger to our democracy? Our founding fathers were christian.........
Do you really feel like christianity is rammed down your throat? Gay people can have the same benefit as straight married couples, I really don't care. Does it really bother you that the ten commandments are posted in federal and state courthouses? Are your morals really that far from many christians?


No one was blaming christians for this....the point which you obviously missed was the hypocracy shown by people within a party who act like they are better than everyone else because they wear their religion on their sleeves, but dont even try to live by the standards they claim to be about. On top of that they point their filthy little fingers at everybody else and call them immoral.
you need to stop rambling and jumping around. Be clear and tell me if you are talking about the republican party surrounding Mark Foley's case or just christians in general. If you are talking about the Mark Foley case, don't assume things because you don't know the full details. Why would christians protect a pedaphile? Especially christians who have children? From what I'm reading, it seems as if you have something against christians. We don't point our filthy little fingers at everybody else and call them immoral. Everyone has different morals and we respect that. Our teachings say nothing about pointing our fingers at people and judging them because it tells us not to.

[CustomRider13]

I agree totally with what you are saying here; my ONLY problem is with the extremists. I have no problems with the millions of christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buhdists, native American shamans, etc who have a live and let live phillosophy. I don`t mind someone sharing their beliefs and "offering" their beliefs with me. My only objection is when the extremists try to use the laws of our nation to force their beleifs upon me and other Americans.
That's all you had to say, "extremists".

[NCC-1701]

just like anything else, when governments get ahold of religion, they twist it to somehow work in their favor. these are opportunists, not Christians.
the crazed evangelical preachers are just as bad as the government. these people are usually trying to advance their own political agendas, and think throwing "religion" in your face is the way to do it.

These are the ones that I have a problem with, not the decent religious people out there. I did a theology paper in college and when I was researching the origins of modern religion, one thing I found that startled me was that in the Christian religion which began as an offshoot of Judeo, was that up untill the Roman Catholic church began to really become a powerfull force, there was no concept of hell. Early Christians also embraced reincarnation as well. The whole hell concept was incorporated as a negative consequence of "not towing the line" It is interesting how religion changes to fit the times as history progresses. Our Christmas holiday for example, was incorporated into religion in the early days of the Holy Roman Empire. For thousands of years, northern Europeans celebrated the pagan Yuletide festivals and with the spread of Christianity accross Europe, this conflicted with the chistain faith but people did not want to give up on this holliday. The Roman Church then included Yuletide as a celebration of Christ`s birth. The legends of St. Nicholas and the practice of the Christmas tree are actually far older than Christianity, dating back to pre-Celtic times.

On the original topic for a moment; I think the THEORY of Evolution should be taught in science because that is a scientific approach to attempting to understand the origins of life in the universe. Additionally I think a couple of semmesters of Theology should be taght in school as well. Most Americans have no idea what other religions of the world have to say. It would serve humanity well to have a basic understanding of what ALL the major religions believe, not just Christianity. School is about learning and about becoming a well rounded individual who leaves primary school with a basic understanding of the world around them and the people in it. Personally, I don`t understand why Evolution and the idea that the world is billions of years old as opposed to about 6,000 years old is such a problem for the evangelicals.....who are we to dictate to God how he HAD to make it all happen and then tell God how long he had to do it in?

[NCC-1701]

That's all you had to say, "extremists".
what is your problem?

[NCC-1701]

you need to stop rambling and jumping around. Be clear and tell me if you are talking about the republican party surrounding Mark Foley's case or just christians in general. If you are talking about the Mark Foley case, don't assume things because you don't know the full details.
No one is rambling and jumping around......I am talking about the Republicans in the House of Representatives who, and no, all the facts are not yet clear, appear to have known this (Mark Foley) had been going on for some time and had been covering it up.
The point is that the political party that likes to claim the moral high ground lately seems to have become the most immoral group of lawmakers who are constantly embroiled in scandal. I give you Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff as just a couple of examples, not to mention the republican governor of Ohio. These are the people I speak of. Like I said many times over, those people are not true Christians, but they loudly profess their "christianity" and claim to hold that moral high ground.

[CustomRider13]

No one is rambling and jumping around......I am talking about the Republicans in the House of Representatives who, and no, all the facts are not yet clear, appear to have known this (Mark Foley) had been going on for some time and had been covering it up.
Then you should've said Republicans in the House of Representatives.

The point is that the political party that likes to claim the moral high ground lately seems to have become the most immoral group of lawmakers who are constantly embroiled in scandal. I give you Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff as just a couple of examples, not to mention the republican governor of Ohio. These are the people I speak of. Like I said many times over, those people are not true Christians, but they loudly profess their "christianity" and claim to hold that moral high ground.
You've been calling them "christians" in your posts up until the last two. If you knew how to differentiate true christians and others that aren't why didn't you do so earlier?

[NCC-1701]

Oh I get what youre objecting to now...sorry I was`nt more clear in the beginning. Yeah, I did`nt mean to group ALL Christians together in that way. I too have many close friends who are VERY religious and try at all times to live "Christ-like" they are great people. They are offended by "cetain people" who happen to be lawmakers claiming to be "good Christians" all the while they are crooked as dogs hind leg.

With regard to the Mark Foley scandal.
There is mounting evidence that Republicans in the House including former speaker Newt gingrich and current speaker Denny Hastert knew for several years this was going on and covered it up; puting politics ahead of protecting teenage pages. Sure, as you said the whole truth is not known positively yet, but there is enough surfacing to cause reasonable suspicion. I do not wildly make claims based on fantasy or hatred of Bush. I only state something if I feel there is enough evidence to cause reasonable suspicion. Here is just a few such articles out of hundresd that can be found with a search regarding this case. To clarify my point in bringing this case up, I was pointing out in this discussion of religion and politics that there seems to be a pattern of corrupt people attempting to hide their activities behind a veil of morality and claiming their Christianity when in fact they are antithetical to what Christianity stands for. I was attempting to illustrate why so many people are getting a really negative attitude towards religion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100400616.html
[/URL]
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-061004foley,1,3257472.story?ctrack=1&cset=true (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-006/10/04/AR2006100400616.html)

[URL]http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/three_more_form.html

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=2509586

I hope that helps clear up any misinterpretation, I should have been more exact in my earlier posts.

[Snowcat pat]

Religeon used to be a way of controlling people, some of us have broken free of its chains, some have not.

It used to play a huge part in peoples lives, the farther away from that we have gotten the better the world has really gotten.

& yeah religeon has changed to suit whatever means needed. Its bull****, plain and simple yet so many people continue to eat it up.

[asd]

Uh....I think I covered that already in detail.........

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

What part of this dont you get????

So how in hell can they say that Creation cannot be taught in schools?

[Snowcat pat]

So how in hell can they say that Creation cannot be taught in schools?

Creation is a religeous concept with absolutley no scientific backing. Public schools are state financed which means creation cannot be touched in school.

Enough already religeous fools

[asd]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural), sacred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred), divine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine) or highest truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma), and the moral codes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_code), practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought.

Based on that, Athiesm could almost be a religion, because it is beliefs, not in a God, but belief that their is no God, and many times people shove them down other peoples throats.

[asd]

Creation is a religeous concept with absolutley no scientific backing. Public schools are state financed which means creation cannot be touched in school.

Enough already religeous fools

yeah but - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

and explain why early schools it was the law in some states that the New England Primer was taught. look it up in Wikipedia. I know, I have a copy of the New England Primer, and that is a book based on Christianity.

[Snowcat pat]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural), sacred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred), divine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine) or highest truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma), and the moral codes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_code), practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought.

Based on that, Athiesm could almost be a religion, because it is beliefs, not in a God, but belief that their is no God, and many times people shove them down other peoples throats.

However athiesm is not a system, has no social coherence, no moral codes practices or rituals.

Furthermore schools do not preach athiesm, there are not for or against religeon, get over it.

Creation cannot and will not be covered in public schools curriculum

[username? tim?]

you know pat you are gonna be pissed off at religious people your whole life because religion will never go away, people need it too much. and i don't see how the world has gotten better... the world has gotten smarter and so people don't need religion as much but people are still being killed and life still sucks for most of the planet. Religion hasn't changed at all for the most part the world changes and so the relevence of religion has changed but the idea has been the same for about 2000 years.. and that's just christianity
i don't think that creation should be taught as truth in schools but i don't think the big bang should be taught in school either because neither can be proven as truth. the big bang is supported by science and science deals with things that are proven to be true so it's the better candidate


and by that definition atheism could be religion because it says
system (or anti-system) of social coherence (what people think) based on a common group of attitudes concerning a system of thought considered to be the hightest truth and the institutions associated with it...
so really the idea of school is an atheist church because god isn't known therefore cannot be taught

[asd]

However athiesm is not a system, has no social coherence, no moral codes practices or rituals.

Furthermore schools do not preach athiesm, there are not for or against religeon, get over it.

Creation cannot and will not be covered in public schools curriculum

But they are both a set of beliefs, and just like some Cristians, some Athiests shove their beliefs down others throat.


And science proves stuff wrong, not right.

[Oi For Anarchy]

if someone was teaching religon in my school i would get very angry. school is about learning basics in math, history, science, and english. religon is not important and i hate religon. not because im the antichrist or an anarchist. but beacuse why cant people be spiritual. woulndt that cause less rasicm. religon just speperates people and throws them into a label. but if they want that then fine. but when i have kids i dont want religon being taught to them in school, beacuse it would probably be wrong. just like when they explane anarchy. they explane it as not wanting government. but there is a reason. they want peace and equality for everyone. not to go out and be vandals. if they want to find a religon they can look into them. and evolution is NOT a religon, it has PROVEN FACTS to go along with it. god, jesus being the savior, buddah, and shenanigans are NOT PROVEN. get over the fact that they will never teach religon in schools enless you go to a private school thats religous, and that evolution will be taught. i think that summs up what everyone before me was trying to say to but you just dont get it.


remeber kids, DONT ASK QUESTIONS, JUST ASK ANSWERS.
and half of what they teach you in school is bull.

[Oi For Anarchy]

Our founding fathers were christian......... sorry custom rider 13. but our founding fathers were also drunks, rapists, murderers, and mentally insane. what does that tell you.

[NCC-1701]

I have never run into an athiest who "shove their beliefs down others throats" Every athiest/agnostic I have ever met could really give a flying f*ck what you want to believe in. If you wanna pray to your toaster, we could care less. Its the evangelicals and the fundamentalists in religion such as the jihadists of Islam that are obsessed with pushing their beliefs. Our founding fathers fled religious oppression from King George of England where the church of England was like another branch of government. Yes they were christians but they had come from a place where chrisianity had become oppressive and they set up our republic so that all people had the freedom to choose their religion and excercise therof as well as the freedom not to have any religion at all.
When you teach "Intelligent design" or Creationism, you exclude other religion`s beliefs about the creation of the universe. To teach the Christian view in school but not say the Hindu or bhudist or Native American, etc beliefs violate the First Ammendment by in essence, promoting one religious belief ahead of another. If you were from say the Hopi Tribe, you would not appreciate christian creationism being taught. The difference with the theory of evolution is that it is the one scientific theory that is universally accepted world wide without regard to religion. Our school`s job is to attempt to prepare young people to function and suceed in the world, not convert them to one relgion over another. If they do not expose their students to theories and scientific methods that are accepted by the world`s scientific community, they are derelict in their duties. I ask you how you would feel if your school board decided to make an Islam class a required subject? Most evengelical Christians would go bananas. Once you begin promoting one set of religious beliefs over another, you open a huge pandoras box. Our Republic has function just fine for over 200 years with religious tolerance. We are one of the few nations on the globe where Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhudists, Hindus, Native Americans, Pagans, Wickens, Druids, Athiests, Agnostics,etc,etc,etc, can live in peace together unmolested by the government and the church. Try going to a country that is a theocracy; a land where religion has the backing of the law. Try going to an Islamic Republic where Sharia Law is enforced....very soon you will realize how petty this creationism in school argument really is.

School = education
Church = faith & worship

There is room enough in America for both we don`t need to blend them.

[CustomRider13]

Oh I get what youre objecting to now...sorry I was`nt more clear in the beginning. Yeah, I did`nt mean to group ALL Christians together in that way. I too have many close friends who are VERY religious and try at all times to live "Christ-like" they are great people. They are offended by "cetain people" who happen to be lawmakers claiming to be "good Christians" all the while they are crooked as dogs hind leg.

With regard to the Mark Foley scandal.
There is mounting evidence that Republicans in the House including former speaker Newt gingrich and current speaker Denny Hastert knew for several years this was going on and covered it up; puting politics ahead of protecting teenage pages. Sure, as you said the whole truth is not known positively yet, but there is enough surfacing to cause reasonable suspicion. I do not wildly make claims based on fantasy or hatred of Bush. I only state something if I feel there is enough evidence to cause reasonable suspicion. Here is just a few such articles out of hundresd that can be found with a search regarding this case. To clarify my point in bringing this case up, I was pointing out in this discussion of religion and politics that there seems to be a pattern of corrupt people attempting to hide their activities behind a veil of morality and claiming their Christianity when in fact they are antithetical to what Christianity stands for. I was attempting to illustrate why so many people are getting a really negative attitude towards religion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100400616.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-061004foley,1,3257472.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/three_more_form.html

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=2509586

I hope that helps clear up any misinterpretation, I should have been more exact in my earlier posts.
people need to be careful when they point the finger. You shouldn't blame the group for the mistakes of individuals. Especially, when the individuals go against the group's beliefs. Often times, ignorant people will hear it, remember the generalization and turn it in to prejudice. There are a lot of ignorant people in this world and they like to jump the guns, so you should always watch what you say.
About the Mark Foley case, the details of the situation has not yet unfolded , so I am not going to make any assumptions untell I hear more details. And even at that, I probably still won't.
I think the government should just get a group of people to watch these politicians to avoid all these problems, like an intelligence group.

[CustomRider13]

the world has gotten smarter and so people don't need religion as much The arrogance of men saying that they are too intelligent for a God.

[Snowcat pat]

The arrogance of men saying that they are too intelligent for a God.

Man, having come to grips with reality shunning the fallacys of all religeon.
Im not mentally or emotionally crippled, I dont need the crutch of a god kthnx.

[CustomRider13]

When I started this thread, one of the things I wondered about was this.............why are people so against christianity in school but evolution so easily accepted. I thought christian parents would be more bothered by their child being exposed to evolution then atheist parents are with their children being exposed to christianity. Religion (belief) is such an important part of life to a religious person. Actually, it's more important then life. Evolution is......you're created, you live and then you die. End of story. I know there's more to it then that to an atheist. I'm sure it's a more fulfilling and knowledgeable life (repeat, to an atheist) Anyways, in the eyes of these parents, I think the christians have more to lose then the atheists.
I know I said this already, but the damn founding fathers of this nation were christians!! haha. Don't take this last sentence seriously.

[CustomRider13]

Man, having come to grips with reality shunning the fallacys of all religeon.
Im not mentally or emotionally crippled, I dont need the crutch of a god kthnx.
So I guess what you're saying is that only mentally or emotionally weak people need a god? I know you don't believe that, because there are many intelligent and emotionally strong people that are religious out there. Just explain to me why they need a god....

[Andres]

I wonder how many of these people 80 years from now when they are on there death bed will want to talk with a priest?

people should not throw rocks even when they are out side their glass house...

[asd]

This thread has gone way farther than it should. First of all, it was asking why Intellagent design could not be taught in schools, and people jumped on that and was all like "religion can't be taught in schools, because thats wrong, and I don't believe, your weak and dumb for believing in God". Well, no matter what we all have beliefs, and why should your beliefs be taught when our beliefs are not even touched? all we are asking is why can't the teacher say somethign like "Their are two theories for how the world began. The first, which I believe, is evolution. Evolution happened by a random chemical reaction, and all our universe happened by a random explosion, and now we are here... ... The second, that most Christians believe, is the Idea that an intelligant creator created the earth and universe for us... ...None of these theories are proven, and it is up to you which one you believe, go home and talk to your parents about this"

Thats not asking for religion to be taught, thats just asking to show kids more than one side of the story, and a more wider view of things. That in no way is saying "believe in God, or you will go to Hell". The only thing that not teaching children about creation is doing is giving them a closed minded aproach to things, and when it comes time to fight for their beliefs, they would not be educated enough because they don't know what others believe.


And if not believing in a God makes you feel smarter, and emotionally and mentally stronger than me, whatever. Idc.

[username? tim?]

The arrogance of men saying that they are too intelligent for a God.

what i meant by saying we don't need god as much was that with advances in science technology healthcare all that jazz we can give an explination for why things happen instead of just it's god's will

i'm saying if you get sick it isn't because you did something bad and now god is punishing you for it

as for which religion should be taught... a lot of them say man was made from dust

and look at the title of the thread and you'll know why it's gone where it did

[musicandsnowboarding]

there is no real PROOF of God
there is no real PROOF that carbon dating, evolution theory, etc. are completely true.

therefore this argument = completely pointless.

but honestly. everyone reading this. look around you. everything you see every day. the details of everything. the emotions of everyone. are we just some random consequense of the universe? a god seems more likely.

but again, like i said, this argument=completely pointless. people believe what they believe and an online thread isnt going to change anyones mind. don't hate the believer because you think differently and vice-versa.

[Oi For Anarchy]

wow. i really beg to disagree with the whole god thing. its a bunch of made up storys. you say that look at all this beautiful things around us.

WAKE UP, look at everything thats really going on, murder, violence, hurt, starvation, pain...

if were really all gods children and he loves us.. why the pain and suffering. and yes your going to say without pain there can be no beauty. but some people dont even have a chance to see beauty of life. that are born into a tribe with aids drinking dirt. do you think your god really loves them?

im not saying there isnt something out there. im positive there is. you cant destroy enegry. so where do we go? somewhere thats for sure.

[username? tim?]

wow. i really beg to disagree with the whole god thing. its a bunch of made up storys. you say that look at all this beautiful things around us.

WAKE UP, look at everything thats really going on, murder, violence, hurt, starvation, pain...

if were really all gods children and he loves us.. why the pain and suffering. and yes your going to say without pain there can be no beauty. but some people dont even have a chance to see beauty of life. that are born into a tribe with aids drinking dirt. do you think your god really loves them?

im not saying there isnt something out there. im positive there is. you cant destroy enegry. so where do we go? somewhere thats for sure.

you live in a very sad place... god gave man freedom of choice... man chose the path he's on man is still choosing the path he's on...
i think that the saying without sad you wouldn't know happiness is total b.s.
the bible says in the new testiment that those that live outside the law are judged outside the law i take that to mean those people that died without knowing beauty will not miss out on it later...
but why then would we try to spread the gospel if the ones that aren't saved are going to see beauty anyway?
well that might be so but those that haven't seen what could be are going to continue on the path of killing violence pain suffering and bettering themselves at the expense of others making sure they stay alive all costs just like their instincts tell them to... you know humans are no better than any other animal

SCREW THAT!!!!

i don't belive humans are animals... i think the ability to recognise and make a sacrifice is exactly what makes us human it is our higher brain function but it's nature and instinct that is holding us on the path we are on
so what does it matter if this book telling me how to be human entails a god and an after life... if nothing else it's motivation to continue trying to be less selfish even though i'm gonna get made fun of or rediculed or as was the fate of so many others shot for trying to be human i don't see the problem

[thedude]

"humans were given a great idea, and they messed it up by building a beliefe system on it. you see, ideas are much easier to change than a belief., i mean, people die for their beliefes. when was the last time you heard of anybody dying for an idea?"
-Rufus, the 13th apostal

[musicandsnowboarding]

"humans were given a great idea, and they messed it up by building a beliefe system on it. you see, ideas are much easier to change than a belief., i mean, people die for their beliefes. when was the last time you heard of anybody dying for an idea?"
-Rufus, the 13th apostal

dogma. good movie. its so bazaar what with jay and silent bob....but i was surprised to see that it had some good points [like rufus' quote^]

[Snowcat pat]

I love how you religeous folk bite into christianity so much.

The religeon stemmed off judaism, jesus was a jewish man, nonetheless a jewish king.

Christianity has evolved to the point where it is nothing like what was originally christianity. Constantine rewrote the bible and revamped christianity to include alot of pagean symbolism to unite the roman empire when he converted it to catholicism. People used to worship on saturday, it was changed to sunday. SUN - day , you know since pageans worshipped the sun it was convenient to help make them convert. Christianity was way too politically involved way back when for me to take any of it as true.

King james r