Haditha War Crimes.

[Snow Wolf]

Okay...here I go again....everyone already knows full well where I am at on this issue and this president, so I see no need to comment on my views with regard to "incidents" like this and what ought to be done. View the video if you are inclined and make up your own mind about how you feel about it.

This is a CNN video interviewing the surviving CHILDREN from the Haditha Masacre in Iraq where at least 24 innocent, presumably un armed civilians were butchered at the hands of American Marines.

http://www.ketv.com/video/9298956/index.html?taf=oma

[Corkscrewed]

i understand people's need to be patriotic, but i don't understand how people can still be supporting this war. as much sh!t as people wanna talk about the middle east, and the people of that region, i wish our media was more like al-jazeer(?). they show horrific and graphic images of war, unlike our censored and edited version of the news. if the american public could really see what goes on over there everyday, they would change their tune (hopefully). that's partially the reason for the unpopularity of Vietnam. when the american public saw images of their sons and daughters being shot and shot at everynight on the news, it made alot of people realize what a terrible waste of human life the war was. i think it's bullsh!t that we have movies (not to mention video games) that show every possible violent act imaginable, but we can't show REAL LIFE violent acts that are occurring as we speak. it's terrible how ignorant the public is in general and how the media plays to most people's ignorance of world events. good show wolf...you like to rock the boat a little...that's one of the best traits anyone can have!



"You gotta fight the powers that be"- Chuck D....Public Enemy

[Snow Wolf]

Thanks.....I am very passionate about this insanity Bush got us into....wish more people gave a sh!t....you are right on target about the media(and the other stuff too about violence)...the right wing kooks call it liberal and it is`nt, otherwise they would`nt pander to this administration like they do....remember how they were like vultures with Clinton? Everyone was outraged because he lied to a Grand Jury about having oral sex with Monica.....and yet these evil bastards lied about dragging our nation into war; killing over 2600 of our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers and friends plus who the hell knows how many innocent Iraqi`s, and no one in the media gives a sh!t. Everywhere in the world, you can see what is going on over there except here in America where we keep being told its a great big success...now the same fools who still, even now support this war will stupidly support going into Iran too....utter fools! We are creating American hating terrorist faster than we can kill them over there....the Islamic fallout from this will last thousands of years (provided the human race can survive past Bush`s presidency).



Damn it.... I said I was`nt going to comment on this anymore........just can`t keep my mouth shut about this; although I can`t legally say what I would really like to see happen to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Condi!!!

[Corkscrewed]

^ hey wolf...what do you think of this theory i heard regarding minorities and the Bush administration. it goes something like this: Everyone knows that most Republicans don't really support agendas that are friendly to minorites. in response to statements like the one Kanye West made ("Bush hates black people") the Bush administration has appointed minorites to high level positions in order to make them scapegoats for the administrations f**k ups, and thus perpetuating the stereotype that minorities are incapable of serving in these positions. one example that comes to mind is Colin Powell. all of the blame for the faulty intel we received about the wmd fell onto him thus causing him to resign. once they've served their purposes, could Condi and Alito(?) be next? i'm not sure where i heard this (maybe drunken bar philosophy) but as a minority, i thought it was definately an interesting discussion. any thoughts on this?

[Snow Wolf]

Yeah...the real irony is that all of Collin Powell`s warnings about going into Iraq were true. He was the lone voice of reason, urging these killers not to invade Iraq. I lost respect for Powell when he caved into their lies and went to the UN with his drawings of those rediculous "mobile labs" which were weather stations....had to use drawings because there were no photos because there were no trailers......in a way I feel sorry for him, but he should have stood up to the bastards and resigned in protest before the war. He became a constant reminder of the administration`s failures and had to go.

While Bush`s latest attempt to bring up immigration and guest worker programs are a political strategy that stinks to high heaven of Karl Rove, I agree that Bush, like a lot of Republicans is inherintly racist; or at the very least, totally clueless about racial issues. Everything going on right now is a desperate act to try to appeal to his extreme right wing evangellical freak base....the border, flag burning and gay marraige....it all appeals to his base`s lesser nature of bigotry and freakish religious zealotry...we saw the same thing in 2004 when gay marraige made its major debute to put Iraq and the ecconomy on the back burner. What is sad is these people are so stupid, they don`t get what`a happening and how they are being used like the ignorant sheep they are. On the flip side, he touts his "guest worker program" to try to desperately retain some of the Latino vote...not for him, but the Republicans` biggest fear is of Democrats regaining control of the House or the Senate or both...if that happens, he could be in real trouble as then there would be enough votes to pass an Impeachment Resolution and if Dems have the Senate too...his trial in the Senate could actually remove him from office....I think this campaign year is going to get VERY ugly as these Republicans are in trouble and are very desperate.

Oh, and in my opinion, it really was`nt faulty intell...from what I read and see in hearings on C-Span, the intelligence agencies repeatedly report how the administration put pressure on them to manipulate the intelligence to fit the policy...the Yellow Cake Uranium story is a prime example....I don`t think out Intell was bad about 9-11 or Iraq....they did their job and provided clear warnings...this fool chose to ignore it all....in my opinion Bush is personall guilty of over 3,800 counts of Negligent Homicide for the deaths of everyone on 9-11!

I too wonder when all this will come down on Condi...but I also think Condi may have security because I am wondering if there is`nt something going on between those two...she may be able to really screw him if he gets out of line with her...just a passing thought.

[ADRsk8boarder]

we are officially ****ed in this war, well we have been for awhile, but now were are commiting war crimes like in veitnam

[instigator1225]

PSH....we were commiting war crimes before the press got ahold of any of this.

[ADRsk8boarder]

yea this happened a year ago and now its finally comeing out

[DragonUSMC]

Welcome to war kiddies... These kinds of things happen in war. the only difference is now it is televised for your viewing pleasure, right along with your favorite reality TV show… The difference is those Iraqi people who got blown up at the market, I became friends with, and that solider you saw get his head taken off, I’m with his wife and kids trying to help them make it though the day.

I don’t know what these Marines might have done. If they did do it, they have brought great discredit and dishonor to my Corps. But know this… the terrorists murder entire villages with our stolen weapons, then take their own videos of the “assault”. They kidnap entire families and send the son or father off with an RPG alone to assault our convoy. Telling him if he doesn’t then they will kill his family, but if he does they will release his family and give him some $$. There is no money and the family is already dead when he walks out the door.

I’m not justifying this war… I don’t have to it’s not my job. My job was to make sure that everyone is free to think and do what they want. So they can make this world a better place. I am neither Democrat nor Republican, I am just a Marine who wants to keep people safe and help others. Everyone is accountable for their actions… and these Marines will also be accountable… but you are innocent until proven guilty last time I checked… or are you the only ones’ allowed that right? Do not look for scapegoats because you dislike the president or anything else for that matter. Make a difference, Stand up for what you believe in, and above all ACT on what you believe in.

I don’t normally talk about these things; I hope I at least brought a different perspective into view.

[DragonUSMC]

PS if you choose to flame i will simply not respond. If you do not possess the ability to intelligently debate, or have proper grasp on your rhetoric and composition. Do not simply make deliberate attacks on my character.

[ADRsk8boarder]

im sorry please take no offenese but when u say that they take our weapons i do not undestand... in the videos they use ak's and swords, i beleive that we use neither

[DragonUSMC]

Trust me they use anything that they can get their hands on. And yes they have US weapons. Where do you think they go when they hit a HMMWV with an RPG? Taking weapons is part of the game of war. Just like when we leave them out there booby-trapped so that next time they try and fire a mortor at us they blow themselves up.

And yes their primary weapons are AK's, the FG-42, even some old SVTs. They use these because EVERYTHING for them is plentiful. ammo, parts (which they dont need cause those old guns are indestructable.) Where as getting the NATO rounds is not as easy, but isnt really that hard. I've accidently lost ammo when running around with **** hitting the fan.

These People are not stupid... quite the contrary. The problem is they lack the ability to prose any threat with a DIRECT assult. Like all of them on one side and all of us on the other. They use these techniques to cause the torn agenda's here and in Iraq. The problem they are facing now is that they have been blowing up Iraqi civilians so much, that the Iraqis started to reject them. They did that because they want Numbers... they dont care whom they kill they just want a number up on our TVs here in the US and there in Iraq. Now that they have done this the populous hate them, so they are smart. And recently about a year ago... just as i was leaving, they started murdering towns small towns. With our weapons that they stashed. This way now they can get everyone to believe that we did it. Dont get me wrong, yes civilians have died, thats an unfortuenate part of war. But the enemy is smart, VERY smart... and they dont have to follow the rules that we do. They turn every hand they can to aid them, and it works.

It doesnt make sense to you because you cannot see it or experience it. Its not like anything you see on TV or read about... its hard to describe. Even now i could not put into words what it is like for the adverage Iraqi. Because even if i told you, you couldnt comprehend it because you have never even come close to what its like for them. I had no idea until i was there for a month or two.

I'll leave you with this question... You younger guys... how much do you love school?

[ADRsk8boarder]

yea two of my cosuins are in iraq one a marine doing door to door and another on a battleship for the navy and graduated from annapolis last year. i realize how skillful these insurgents are cause bush said we were gonna be in and out and now were there for 3 years or something , to me its starting to look a lot like vietnam ; war crimes, insrugents, no one wants us there....
to me an education is very important i was thinking bout going to the airforce academy or going to a uc and joining the united nations peace keeping force, but for me school comes first specially with all this talk bout the draft starting up in a year or two

[DragonUSMC]

I personally dont see a draft starting again. For a couple reasons... first, the people in the military, dont want a draft, we would rather do 6 -20 tours then have someone who is a person that doesnt want to be there with us. The military is a brotherhood, especially the Marines, you might know that from your cousin... When its us out there we are all brothers and sisters... its a literal fight to see who is going to jump on the granade first, and who is going to be first to pull back a wounded brother or sister. We would kill for eachother and die for eachother without a second thought. The people that join for the college money, trust me, there are thousands of better ways to get $$ for school.

Second, its hard to believe but the Iraqi National Guard is actually getting pretty good. When we were out there... they sucked. Now they are actually completeing their own missions with very few injuries. When i was there only 1 Platoon was capable of this feat. Now there are 12. If you think we are ever going to have NO troops in Iraq, your crzay. Even if everything was perfect RIGHT NOW... there will be a sustaining FOB (Forward Operating Base) there for many years... it is already being build as a JOB (Joint Operations Base) On these bases Personnel rotate out from each branch. this base is Al Asad Air base. It now has a swimming pool, burger king, Taco Bell, Movie theater, Gym, Full water purifications system, full air base for fixed wing and rotoray operations, 100% hard top living quarters, heavy bomb bunkers, complete maintanence facility for ALL equipment, Dragon Gun Morter and rocket base protection system... Its loaded. There are hundreds of bases like this around the world. Your cousin might be able to tell you about em... not all Marines get to go on these, some just stay state side their whole career.

We will have operations there indiffenately. And it seems that everyone is jumping on this "like Vietnam" bandwagon... I cant get on you too bad about this... but i do know that you've studied it in school. Therefore can understand how this is NOTHING like Vietnam. Are their similarities? yes... but there are similarities between Iraq war and Cavemen war. I could go on forever about how Vietnam is not like Iraq... Vietnam will ALWAYS be more grusome, that was a real war... i dont feel like this is a real war. I served with 3 highly decorated Vietnam vets when i was out there... i cant imagine the things they have seen, knowing that they felt like iraq was a vacation from their wives.

Anyway I appluad you for your wanting to go to school and do UN peace keeping things... It is not the norm for young people like yourself to stand up for yourselves and not only YELL to all that will listen to you what you believe, but also STANDING for it and accepting your convictions.

OK that was WAY long... I promise i wont post in here anymore... I feel it can only lead to trouble. But thank you for your intelligent remarks and questions, i was afraid of a giant flame war processing from this

[ADRsk8boarder]

its ok if u have something educated to say and makes sense people will read

[rosepose48]

I happen to be quite liberal myself, yet find information absolutly useless unless it is complete. Therefor, in order for me to make my own opinion on this war i need to evaluate info from all sides. (for war, against, in your case fighting in the war) thanks for sharing your thoughts

[DragonUSMC]

Wow! I'm actually pleasently surprised! I was really afraid that a flame war would follow... only in my debate forums has this ever happened before. (but we are all there for debating purposes on that forum where as this draws a much broader demographic of people)

I am the same way... i can never have too much information, and hearing complete information from either side of the argument simply helps me decide my stand points better. Its the people that spout off crzay things about their sister's boyfirend's cousin's great aunt who was making out with the baker's wife in nantucket, and using them as a viable source that drive me nuts =)

[Corkscrewed]

i can never have too much information, and hearing complete information from either side of the argument simply helps me decide my stand points better. Its the people that spout off crzay things about their sister's boyfirend's cousin's great aunt who was making out with the baker's wife in nantucket, and using them as a viable source that drive me nuts =)


i can't argue with you on that point! people on this site are pretty cool about expressing their points of view. but i have to agree that i hate when people wanna go for a full on arguement, and they only have half the facts!

[Snow Wolf]

Dragon,

As you have already likely surmised, I am very liberal on most issues and very much against Bush`s decission to invade Iraq. Having said that, I thank you and all Soldiers, Seamen, Airmen and your fellow Marines for you service to our country. My issue is not with the military, it is with the civilian leadership that has and continues to lie to the world, the American people and the military guys. These people refused to listen to the advice of the generals in the field and becuase of this, we find ouselves stuck in this horrible situation. At the begining of this Collin Powell warned Bush that he was about to "Open the gates of Hell"

Yes this is war...I am 41 and not a "kiddie" and I served in the Air Force....but your point is really valid in that by seeing horrible images like this and of our guys being killed and injured.....we should all realize more than ever that war should alway remain a desperate last resort....not a flippant choice because a thintank called "The Project for a New Amercian Century" backed by huge defense contractors like Halliburton and the Carlysle Group, not to mention Exxon-Mobile....see this as a great ecconomic opportunity. Patton was right when he said "War is Hell" that`s what make it a thing to avoid, but these bastards who decided to do this, never served...well okay Rumsfeld was in the Navy....but they don`t get what war really is like you as a Marine on the groud see...and that is why they are so cavalier about it. Actions like this in Haditha, are a direct indicator of the failure of leadership more that a few troops gone bad. Incidents like this should be a huge red flag that we are overextended and some of our brave men and women are loosing it from war stress.

I am glad to hear what you said about there being some improvements....where we need improvement is in the civilian contractors...aka Halliburton and KBR who still have not gotten power restored, water or sewer restored....also, it is so wron that these hideous companies won`t hire unemployed Iraqi citizens to rebuild their own country because they can get cheaper labor from bringing in people from Bangladesh....I have a coworker who quit and went to KBR to drive truck and that money (our tax dollars) that they waste is disgusting!

Yes there is a difference between this an Vietnam....Vietnam was a war based on real military strategy of stopping the spread of Communism (which is stupid and a whole other topic) and this has been from it`s conception a private war based on ecconomic goals despite the propaganda spoon fed to the American People and the world.

As much as I hate the fact we are in this mess, I agree that we cannot just pull out as so many want to....believe me, I wish we could, but we have got to fix what we broke or things are going to really go to hell......if we get compitent leadership, we still have time to fix this I think. From my studies into the region and current situation, I see the current problem this way.... Bringing down Saddam was easy and this administratation failed utterly to anticipate what occupying a defeated country would entail. As our forces moved toward Bagdahd, we did not have the resource to secure borders and towns as we left. We are in a situation where the troops clear a town of terrorists and insurgents, but then have to leave it ungaurded and as soon as we are gone, it is infiltrarted again. Because of this administration`s incompetence and arrogance, Iraq is now full of Al Queida like it was not before.

Also we are now caught in the middle of a building civil war....why are we in the middle....a little brief lesson on the dynamics of Iraq and the Middle East makes it easy to understand:
The majority of the Islamic religeon in that region (Iran, Iraq, Syria etc) is Shiate (sp?) Muslim. In Iraq the Shiate make up a huge majority as well. The Sunni Muslims are a minority in Iraq and elswhere, but under Saddam, the Sunni`s had the power. Now with Saddam gone and with "free" democratic elections, it is only natural that the Shiates would prevail. The Shiates adhere to very strict Sharia law much the way Iran is run. In this situation, you now have death squads of Shiate slaughtering the Sunni`s left and right. The Sunni`s fear genocide and they are fighting back desperately. They view the United States as being "in bed" with the Shiates and therefore we are a "legitimate" target of their IED`s and suicide attacks. Like it or not we, by default, have been placed on a "side" in this war.

Things then fuel themselves.....an IED goes off killing and maiming a US patrol and our guys are torn apart physically and mentally and they begin to hate these people with such a fiece loathing that normal, western values and civilised behaviour break down and you see things like Haditha happen to people who likely were innocent, but in the wrong place at the wrong time. Another factor is, just like Vietnam, we are at a point where it is difficult to differentiate between friend and foe....often times an insurgent is holed up in a house by force....they literaly hold a gun to the family`s head...when our patrol`s kick the door in and all hell breaks loose the innocent hostages get aced too.

All this just shows how wrong and how un necessary this war is and how it did`nt have to come to this. So in my rantings about how wrong this all is, please understand I am not attacking the military guys......I lay 100% of the blame on George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Condoleza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle and others in this administration`s doorstep. As far as taking action, I do regularly in the form of writing my Representative and two Senators about thes issues as well as many others. In this Republic, we are supposed to be the government so we are all (well those old enough to vote :) )equally responsible for what our government is doing; although with lobbying and corporate influence I don`t know how true this reamains :(


Edit: Hillarious...this thing won`t let me spell Cheney`s first name shortened......LOL

[DragonUSMC]

The demographic of war had drastically changed. With companies like KBR and Halliburton, there stands to be profit made. And your right they hired girls from Thailand to do our laundry on the big base. They also made some money on the side and I’m sure you know what I mean. That got stopped… But the electricity, water, sewer… all these things are basically non-existent to begin with. The Major cites have remote infrastructure like this but where the vast majority of the people live there is nothing. A lot of what they are doing is building this. They are doing a pretty crappy job… the Marine Engineer Bn. Came in and in one day accomplished what they did in 2 weeks. With less people and older equipment.

Ousting Saddam was a cake walk… and while I agree that doing that had nothing to do with AQ (al Qaeda) I know that the people are better off now. I saw it slipping into civil war… that’s how it was when we rolled though Baghdad. One block would love us; the next would hate us, the one after that wasn’t quite sure yet…etc. But like you said… we made a mess, and I cannot with a clear conscious say “ok let’s go home, you guys have fun…” Do I know what to do… not really. Because it changed when we got there to what it is today. Before, the terrorists would only attack US troops… Which is fine with me… bring it on. That’s what we did, when the Marines got there the Army’s orders of “if you get shot at while on convoy, drive through it and keep going, don’t stop.” Marines did not like this strategy, so our orders changed to “stop the convoy, repel enemy assault by fire and maneuvering.” Weather it was one guy or 50, we would neutralize the target.

Well obviously these tactics and the wonderful myths that other people around the world think about Marines changed the tactics. Like I said our enemy is VERY smart. Why blow us up and attack us when they know that they are not only going to lose every man, but maybe if lucky bloody our nose. So they turned to civilian targets… which has led us to this.

I don’t know the answers to this… I can just tell you how it was / is, from a REAL perspective. I don’t like the media anymore… I haven’t watched TV since I’ve been back… ok I lied I watched the X-games. =D but it seems to me that the media has turned this into a reality TV show, and it riles people up and gets them all excited, it’s like you can turn on the TV and yay the new episode of Baghdad ER is on!!! Yeah well that’s my buddy, that’s a father of two, and when you turn off the TV everything isn’t alright for them. (Not directed at you Snow wolf, or anyone this is my general reaction to the general public’s perspective.)

Ok I’ve rambled enough and I should get back to work… I really want to believe that most people feel the way you do Snow wolf. And that’s great; I want a person to have their own opinions, that’s what this country is founded on… But it’s always the crazy few from the far right and the far left that are heard. How come the normal people that fall somewhere in the middle are never heard? Is it just me?

[ADRsk8boarder]

ahhh haliburton and cheney